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Technically I would think it would be, since if a charge is the result of a fraudlent activity, anything dependant on that is also fradulent, and if it involves removing money from your account that is technical theft.
That's always a hard one to put before county courts though, sadly.
It would be a matter for the CPS - and to be honest, can you see the police taking anyone seriously who walks into a plice stations and reports their bank for theft (true, though it may or may not be)?
Advice & opinions of Dave and The Bank Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability.
It really isn't start to talk about theft as fistly you would need to show dsihnest intent ans secondly one would need to find a prosecutng authority which would take you seriously.
However, find the forst - and I'll find the second.
I think that this forum is better off being used to deal with the isse of recovering costs on civil basis - and don't forget that the banks haven't begun to wake up and retaliate yet.
I expect that they will.
Please don't pm me about specific questions unless you have posted and it has not been dealt with or unless the matter is confidential. Please include a link to the post you want me to look at. If you have received a defence, contact me.
Advice & opinions of BankFodder, The Consumer Action Group and The Bank Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any doubts.
It can't be theft. Theft is "dishonestly appropriating propety belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving him of it".
Dishonesty is not present where the bank is stating that it is taking money in accordance with the contract - after all the fees are there for all to see on the bank's leaflet about charges. What we are claiming against our banks is that the charges, although clearly stated, are an unenforceable contract term because of regulations or case law or both. You are essentially asking the court to interpret the contract and declare that the tem relating to charges cannot be enforced.
Which brings me to another point. In the standard letter in the library it would probably be better to include that you will issue proceedings for the return of the money and a declaration from the court that the contract term relating to such charges is unenforceable. Then when you issue proceedings you issue for the money and for a declaration - so you claim:
1. The sum of £x
2. A declaration that the contract term relating to the charges levied by the defendant is unenforceable
3. Costs
4. interest
Isnt' a declaration from the court asking for a part 8 ruling?
If this is the case, then the claimant would not be 'protected' from paying the banks legal costs should they lose (be it morally or because of odd trouser lifting, funny handshake shenanagens)?
Advice & opinions of Dave and The Bank Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability.
It can't be theft. Theft is "dishonestly appropriating propety belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving him of it".
Dishonesty is not present where the bank is stating that it is taking money in accordance with the contract - after all the fees are there for all to see on the bank's leaflet about charges. What we are claiming against our banks is that the charges, although clearly stated, are an unenforceable contract term because of regulations or case law or both. You are essentially asking the court to interpret the contract and declare that the tem relating to charges cannot be enforced.
Which brings me to another point. In the standard letter in the library it would probably be better to include that you will issue proceedings for the return of the money and a declaration from the court that the contract term relating to such charges is unenforceable. Then when you issue proceedings you issue for the money and for a declaration - so you claim:
1. The sum of £x
2. A declaration that the contract term relating to the charges levied by the defendant is unenforceable
3. Costs
4. interest
Hope this helps
You are right about the declaration - except that if it goes to court there is a larger chance that the case might be allocated outside the small claim track and this would put people off. O f course there is the the argument that asking for a declaration would make the banks cave in a bit quicker.
Most of the people who come here really just want to get their money back and they don't want to get into a campaign.
We are trying to help people who need their money as well as put a more genral pressure onto the banks.
Maybe we should offer alternative templates for Doves and hawks
Please don't pm me about specific questions unless you have posted and it has not been dealt with or unless the matter is confidential. Please include a link to the post you want me to look at. If you have received a defence, contact me.
Advice & opinions of BankFodder, The Consumer Action Group and The Bank Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any doubts.
It can't be theft. Theft is "dishonestly appropriating propety belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving him of it".
Dishonesty is not present where the bank is stating that it is taking money in accordance with the contract - after all the fees are there for all to see on the bank's leaflet about charges. What we are claiming against our banks is that the charges, although clearly stated, are an unenforceable contract term because of regulations or case law or both. You are essentially asking the court to interpret the contract and declare that the tem relating to charges cannot be enforced.
Which brings me to another point. In the standard letter in the library it would probably be better to include that you will issue proceedings for the return of the money and a declaration from the court that the contract term relating to such charges is unenforceable. Then when you issue proceedings you issue for the money and for a declaration - so you claim:
1. The sum of £x
2. A declaration that the contract term relating to the charges levied by the defendant is unenforceable
3. Costs
4. interest
Hope this helps
You are right about the declaration - except that if it goes to court there is a larger chance that the case might be allocated outside the small claim track and this would put people off. O f course there is the the argument that asking for a declaration would make the banks cave in a bit quicker.
Most of the people who come here really just want to get their money back and they don't want to get into a campaign.
We are trying to help people who need their money as well as put a more genral pressure onto the banks.
Maybe we should offer alternative templates for Doves and hawks
Yes, but, Bankfodder, you know me, and by now you must realise that I am a hawk - to start with, I thought I was a Dove (I just wanted my money back).
It took me some time to realise that it wasn't just about getting my money back; it was about getting EVERYONES money back.
So, at this stage, most people would be a dove.
Don;t get me wrong - from the PM's I have (and no doubt you too), there are plenty of Hawks too.
The more the merrier.
Advice & opinions of Dave and The Bank Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability.
True asking for a declaration is slightly different from just asking for your money back. But essentially in the money claim you are asking the court to rule that the contract term relating to charges is unenforceable. This is the basis of your contention that you are entitled to the money back. The unenfoceablity of the term relating to charges cannot be taken as read and the court will have to consider this point.
You can (and in accordance with the CPR on the contents of a claim form probably should) ask for the declaration on the money claim form - it shouldn't make it a Part 8 claim - essentially all you are doing is pleading your case properly
IF the charges are unlawful, does this mean that
on them theft ?
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Originally Posted by rbrears
