Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)

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  1. #1
    Basic Account Holder pompeykarl Novitiate

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    Default Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    Hi there,

    On June 20th 2011, i was caught without the correct ticket and was spoken to by 2 inspectors who took down my details.

    I offered to pay and the penalty fare but they said that was not available to me and C2C would write to me.

    I have very upset and distraught after this as I know I have done wrong.

    I have been awaiting a letter and I have phoned C2C twice but was told to await a letter as there was a delay and they were short-staffed.

    Today I received a letter dated 14th July 2011 and it stated 2nd LETTER. I have never received a 1st Letter.

    They want me to pay 293.50 now by 21st July 2011.

    i cant pay by then, so i have handwritten a letter to them this morning and handed it into Benfleet Station, stating I have never received the 1st letter,
    nor was I offered the chance to pay a penalty fare and if they still want me to pay the 293.50 to allow me until the end of the month at least.

    They will not accept phone callsicon, nor will they accept debit cards. Only cheques and postal orders.

    My bank no longer has cheques books as they were going to be defunct, yet C2C do not accept chqs on the station.

    I have done wrong, I know, but the amount is high , yet i dont want it to any further, i am willing to pay whatever is required but it is a lot and I have been given less then a week to pay.

    Is there anything else I can do?

    Please help, I am deeply stressed and upset.


  2. #2
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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    Hello there, welcome to CAGicon.

    There is a Public Transport forum here, where you should have replies and help. I'll ask the mods to move your thread.

    My best, HB

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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    Moved to the Transport forum.

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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    Quote Originally Posted by pompeykarl View Post
    Hi there,

    On June 20th 2011, i was caught without the correct ticket and was spoken to by 2 inspectors who took down my details.

    I offered to pay and the penalty fare but they said that was not available to me and C2C would write to me.

    I have very upset and distraught after this as I know I have done wrong.

    I have been awaiting a letter and I have phoned C2C twice but was told to await a letter as there was a delay and they were short-staffed.

    Today I received a letter dated 14th July 2011 and it stated 2nd LETTER. I have never received a 1st Letter.

    They want me to pay 293.50 now by 21st July 2011.

    i cant pay by then, so i have handwritten a letter to them this morning and handed it into Benfleet Station, stating I have never received the 1st letter,
    nor was I offered the chance to pay a penalty fare and if they still want me to pay the 293.50 to allow me until the end of the month at least.

    They will not accept phone callsicon, nor will they accept debit cards. Only cheques and postal orders.

    My bank no longer has cheques books as they were going to be defunct, yet C2C do not accept chqs on the station.

    I have done wrong, I know, but the amount is high , yet i dont want it to any further, i am willing to pay whatever is required but it is a lot and I have been given less then a week to pay.

    Is there anything else I can do?

    Please help, I am deeply stressed and upset.
    Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to offer a great deal of encouragement I'm afraid. The rail company do not have to offer an

    Firstly, when a traveller is found to be in breach of the rules, the rail company do not have to allow any opportunity to pay at a later date. If there is sufficient eveidence to suggest that prosecution is warranted, then they may proceed accordingly.

    You can only write and advise that you did not receive any 'first letter' and ask for a copy of that letter and the right to respond to that before C2C apply any financial penalty.

    However, there is one thing that I find a little unusual in this one and that is that your post suggests that C2C have immediately offered an opportunity to pay their costs & fares as an alternative to prosecution without having received any representation from the traveller.

    If you still want to pay, but are unable to do so, perhaps writing the letter that I suggested and once you get the reply to that, send a further letter with a request for delay in order to allow time to pay might help.

    I suggest that you send your letters by recorded delivery.


  5. #5
    Basic Account Holder pompeykarl Novitiate

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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    I want to pay and ive been awake all night and i can pay by next Friday,but im very upset that I never got the first letter.I have handed in a letter personally to Benfleet station telling them this yesterday.Its a lot of money, but Its what I deserve and I Just want to get it out of the way.I called a helpline and they 7 days payment is unfair and it should have been 21 days, which I would have accepted as they have stated they want it by post and do not accept debit cards. They also stated the amount they want is high and if went to court, they would get less. I just want to get it clear b4 that stage.If I had received the first letter, I would have paid it by now and moved on and learnt my lesson.Stressed to the eyeballs
    Quote Originally Posted by Old-CodJA View Post
    Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to offer a great deal of encouragement I'm afraid. The rail company do not have to offer an

    Firstly, when a traveller is found to be in breach of the rules, the rail company do not have to allow any opportunity to pay at a later date. If there is sufficient eveidence to suggest that prosecution is warranted, then they may proceed accordingly.

    You can only write and advise that you did not receive any 'first letter' and ask for a copy of that letter and the right to respond to that before C2C apply any financial penalty.

    However, there is one thing that I find a little unusual in this one and that is that your post suggests that C2C have immediately offered an opportunity to pay their costs & fares as an alternative to prosecution without having received any representation from the traveller.

    If you still want to pay, but are unable to do so, perhaps writing the letter that I suggested and once you get the reply to that, send a further letter with a request for delay in order to allow time to pay might help.

    I suggest that you send your letters by recorded delivery.



  6. #6
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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    Its not clear what exactly you are asking ?. You have been given an offer to settle out of court, which most people would suggest you take, can you not borrow the money somehow ?. If not then a letter explaining your circumstances (why you cant pay, you are unemplyed, ill, etc) and this may have some success.You could of course let it run its legal course which by the sounds of it would end up with a fine, perhaps less than the 290 quoted but would land you with a criminal record, perhspas someone sle can explain the seriousness (or not) of a record obtained in this way ?I'm unaware of any banks that have duiscarded with cheque books completely, I recently obtained one from my main two banks.Andy


  7. #7
    Basic Account Holder pompeykarl Novitiate

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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    My bank no longer send out Chq books. Benfleet station is where C2c Rail Prosecution is based, thats why i went there. So not silly at all.I have rec'd a further letter stating i can pay now by 31st July - im going to do this, its not worth the hassle and going to court.C2c have lied in the letter and made asumptions which i showed a solictor and they wouldnt get away with it although i have done wrong in the 1st instance and would still get punished.The inspector took old tickets away from me which were used accordingly, I have been told that under no circumstances was the inspector allowed to take these with out BTP involvement as it was nothing to do with these. The fare C2c is totally not relevant to the crime as they have assumed i have done more wrong. I could go to court and fight but i still would end up with a criminal record as i have done wrong on one day only.C2c shouldnt lie or make assumptions on anyone. its not acceptable in 2011. The sooner C2c lose their franchise the better.


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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    HHmm..Im not sure your rantings are going to help.............C2C have had their franchised extended as they generally provide a good service, its NXEA who are lsoing theirs as their service is below par to say the least.Andy


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    Quote Originally Posted by pompeykarl View Post
    The inspector took old tickets away from me which were used accordingly, I have been told that under no circumstances was the inspector allowed to take these with out BTP involvement as it was nothing to do with these.
    I do not know where you are getting this kind of advice, but that is absolute rubbish. All rail tickets remain the property of the rail company at all times and technically, should be handed in at the end of a journey. Of course there isn't a facility for collection at most stations these days so that condition is pretty well ignored however, used rail tickets may be withdrawn and collected by rail staff. If a traveller needs a receipt to claim expenses, then you can get one at the time of purchase of the ticket.

    British Transport Police do not need to be involved in questioning or prosecution of these cases at all.

    If you are being advised by a solicitor that the C2C staff have 'lied' ( your word there), why would you want to pay them anything??

    In my experience, any Solicitor worth their salt who genuinely believes that to be the case would be suggesting that you pursue the matter vigorously.

    As Andy pointed out your rant is entirely misplaced, but I hope you feel better for it.


  10. #10
    Basic Account Holder pompeykarl Novitiate

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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    They are a dreadful network.Sky high fares in proportion to rest of uk and other networks.Overcrowded trains, unclean toilets. uncomfortable seating.Train delays. Rude staff and poor customer service.I have been told by a solictor and other parties that under no circumstances can a rail ticket be used to incriminate against anyone apart from a season ticket after the date has expired, without BTP involvement. I had other tickets on me to/from Benfleet where I worked the previous week. On day in question i worked in London and thats where i went wrong. I purchased a ticket to basildon instead of Barking.For this is have a fine of 293.50 - very high - as C2c have assumed I have committed more offences. I have not.I could go to court to fight this but i have still committed one offence, so i would still end up in trouble.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    Hello again Karl. Is the solicitor [or the other people] advising you a specialist in rail prosecutions? Fwiw, Old-Codja has considerable experience in this and hasn't been wrong AFAIK.

    Whatever you think of C2C, if they're legally in the right, I suspect there isn't much you can do.

    My best, HB

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    Quote Originally Posted by pompeykarl View Post
    I have been told by a solictor and other parties that under no circumstances can a rail ticket be used to incriminate against anyone apart from a season ticket after the date has expired, without BTP involvement.
    I'm sorry, but that is complete 'tosh'. If that were the case, I can see many thousands of cases that I and other users of this forum have personal experience of going back before the Courts. That should keep a few people in work for a bit!

    Quote Originally Posted by pompeykarl View Post
    I had other tickets on me to/from Benfleet where I worked the previous week.
    They remain the property of the rail company.

    Quote Originally Posted by pompeykarl View Post
    On day in question i worked in London and thats where i went wrong. I purchased a ticket to basildon instead of Barking.
    So, it appears that you purchased a ticket for a shorter journey than that you were actually making thereby failing to pay the proper fare due.

    Quote Originally Posted by pompeykarl View Post
    For this is have a fine of 293.50 - very high - as C2c have assumed I have committed more offences. I have not.
    No, you have NOT been 'Fined'. Only the Courts have the authority to impose fines. You seem to have been given an opportunity to pay an administrative fee to close the case without Court action. You don't have to take it, you don't have to pay and can have the evidence tested by the Magistrates.

    Quote Originally Posted by pompeykarl View Post
    I could go to court to fight this but i have still committed one offence, so i would still end up in trouble.
    Not if you are correct in your assertion that C2C staff have been untruthful in presenting concocted evidence in order to bring about the prosecution. If the Court believed that to be the case you would come away squeaky clean and it would prove extremely expensive and damaging for C2C.

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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    Quote Originally Posted by pompeykarl View Post
    They are a dreadful network.Sky high fares in proportion to rest of uk and other networks.Overcrowded trains, unclean toilets. uncomfortable seating.Train delays. Rude staff and poor customer service.I have been told by a solictor and other parties that under no circumstances can a rail ticket be used to incriminate against anyone apart from a season ticket after the date has expired, without BTP involvement. I had other tickets on me to/from Benfleet where I worked the previous week. On day in question i worked in London and thats where i went wrong. I purchased a ticket to basildon instead of Barking.For this is have a fine of 293.50 - very high - as C2c have assumed I have committed more offences. I have not.I could go to court to fight this but i have still committed one offence, so i would still end up in trouble.
    I'm not one to defend railway companies but you really are spouting rubbish, I travel on C2C every day and have myself been prosocuted many years ago for a similar offence. Experts like Old-Codja have told you that your solicitor is spouting rubbish, there doesnt need to be BTP incolvement and its really not clear what you are talking about, ticket inspectors are perfectly entitled to take tickets from you because they remain property of the railway company.

    Now while C2C are not cheap they compare reasonably well with other companies, a return to London from Westcliff costs me 15.40 whilst a ticket from Prittlewell (NXEA) (actually my nearest station) to London would cost 24.50 so how can you say C2C are the most expensive ?

    You try and find another localcommuter line that has air con..the seats seem fine to me and whilst I have seen overflowed toilets this is very rare and mostly late at night, as for delayus, they are time and time again the No.1 most punctial line !....having travelled on them for many years, they are not perfect, but their punctiality is quite impressive.

    As fore rude staff, I certainly have met some rather unhelpful staff but then again Ive been helped by friendly helpful staff, like life, there is a cross section of people !

    Andy


  14. #14
    Basic Account Holder pompeykarl Novitiate

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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    Thank you for your replies and i appreciate them. Very helpful and i respect your comments.

    Thank for your help. I will pay the fine from C2c for fares and adminicon fee and learn from my experience and never do it again.


  15. #15
    Basic Account Holder pompeykarl Novitiate

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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    Its all too easy to get bad advice, so thanks to all.


  16. #16
    Basic Account Holder pompeykarl Novitiate

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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    I have paid my debt today of 293.50 .Can someone confirm what "without pre-judice" means in these circumstances. It was on my letter.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    That applies to Civil Procedures, not criminal offences.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    Quote Originally Posted by SRPO View Post
    That applies to Civil Procedures, not criminal offences.

    But surely its meaning its roughly the same whether used in civil or criminal cases ?. It generally means that the enclosed letter isn't definate and cant be used in court of proof of acceptance or an offer, (i.e you cant later say, but C2C offered to drop the case if i paid x).

    It can be used for example to make a suggestion of an offer or a settlement without it being a legally binding offer.

    In (civil) cases the phrase without prejudiceicon save as to costs" is often used which is more confusing.

    In what context has "without prejudiceicon" been used ?

    Andy


  19. #19
    Basic Account Holder pompeykarl Novitiate

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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    Letter saidWithout pre-judice we will accept payment of 293.50 by 31 st July without further action.and then some jargon as this is up for going to the courts , all correspondence in writing only.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement

    It seems to me that the best explanation of its meaning in this case is to say that;

    You had the opportunity to pay the 293.50 by the date shown, or to have the matter heard by a court and that your refusal or failure to make any payment could not be seen as detrimental to any argument you might put in relation to the alleged offence.

    Having advised you that there was a case that could be taken forward and that a summons could be applied for, you were offered an alternative way of disposing of the matter, but the rail company and court would accept that it was your right to reject that opportunity and have the case heard if you then chose to do so.

    This would not prejudice your defence in any way.



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