Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

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  1. #1
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    Default Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    Not judging anyone it is noticeable lately how many threads are coming forward giving advice for tax credit iregularities. In fact it totally feels to me that this dwarfs the threads of dwp fraud as in other benefits. It is also noticeable even when a dwp overpaymenticon has occured through error, but yet still has happened that the dwp are not sympathetic and have to consider prosecution at a low figure level.

    I am not saying any fraud is okay, no it is not.

    Just reading the threads which are fine to start as advice is best sought, there is a general feeling that in most cases the tax credits even of high overpayments much in excess of dwp fraud are not prosecuted in the same way. No fraud is okay, but wether working or not I personally think they are less likely to prosecute a working person for keeness to get the money back, where as a person on dwp benefits who possible may be or not be disable is less likely to promptly return the money wether error unoticed or deliberate fraud.

    Reading some of the threads it is understandable that a lot of cases involve desperate people doing desperate things they dont want to do, so again no one judges and shouldnt do, but what I wanted to add is reading the daily mail today shows that the tax credits do prosecute in cases where for instance this woman was ringing up regulary to better her claim and increase her payments, yet was not willing to inform them of the fact that some of her children had been adopted, so she didnt ring to inform them she needed less money, but rang to say fictious children had been born and also that the children were disabled and needed extra help.

    So in cases where people ring to better a claim and yet dont ring to inform of changes which would reduce a claim it does seem they prosecute.

    Also it has to be said how can the tax credits possibly be so stupid as to allow fictious children to suddenly appear without checking facts. When claiming dwp benefits for instance sickness as this woman did claim her kids were sick, various proof must be shown, surely it is time for the tax credits to not be so stupid as it seems they are letting themselves be defrauded.

    To anyone desperate this site is brill for advice for anyone, but it is shocking to see how many tax credit cases of fraud are appearing at a time when people who genuinely need legitamate help for sickness are being treated as work shy and put through the mangle just to try and claim a benefit they are finding they are it seem automatically refused to then have to fight on appeal, when tax credits seems handed out so readily with no regular or compatent checks.

    Possibly because tax credits cases are getting out of hand they will soon prosecute along the lines of dwp fraud, I dont wish anybody ill will at all, but warn it needs to stop.

    If I am over the top I am happy to be told that, but it feels so unfair when you read of desperate people on dwp benefits admitting fault early on wether intentional or not to find a much higher likelihood of prosecution when they also offer to pay it back xx

    You often read how an error dwp wise is claimed to be not noticed, but even so due to the rules of you must keep on top of your claim, they can get prosecuted and it seems common sence is not given space there. Some of the tax fraud cases are massively big, dwp prosecute when hit 2,000 apparantly. There should really be no discrepancy between how they deal with dwp and tax credits to make sure people reaslise how serious getting their claim right is.

    Now i am going to hide away just incase anyone wants to rip my head off xx

    CAGicon is good for helping all no matter what has happened remember that xx

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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    ps. Am I the only one thinking along these lines? just felt it had to be said xx


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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    How on earth does one manage to do things like that and get away with it? I mean, I thought you had to claim child benefit to claim tax credits for children (something about a child benefit number?) and there was something about needing the birth certificate for child benefit.

    And don't they ask for proof for disability? Like the certificate for visual impairment or a DLA award.

    *confused*


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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    When my second child was born I claimed the child benefit via the paper application form and informed tax credits of the change in my circumstances and they paid an interim increase for my newborn baby whilst waiting for the child benefit to be updated to show the revised and increased amount with the Date Of Birth verified.
    I'm not sure how tax credits verify the payment of LA as the computer portals that used to link HMRC and DWP databses have been removed so that it falls to the individual to report the changes to each department and not rely solely on one departmebt notifying all of the others iygwim?
    watchingivestigation I don't think that you are being over the top and I agree as this was issue that was bought up by numerous departments when tax credits were first introduced in 2003 that the level of fraudulent claims would increase, the response well we will del eith it if we need to


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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    there has been a massive shift in Tax Credits processes towards error and fraud in the past 6 months. I have viewed this forum for a while and have only just joined (for this topic!). I have saw the large amounts of undeclared partners and Childcare costs threads, which is an indication that someone at the top finally listened to the people at the bottom.
    Many, many things went unchecked despite the front line concerns but this has changed. 3rd party info as well as greater access to DWP data has meant a rapid increase in correction and prevention of fraud. Much of what seems to be done is claims are corrected. HMRC is and will be going down the route of prosecuting people for fraud and I would expect this in the very near future.

    if you google: tackling error and fraud in the benefits and credits systems, there should be a 2010 PDF document that will answer some of your questions.
    they are certainly cracking down on the individuals, with a lot more focus than they have done and this looks like only the start of it.

    My advice? Correct it...while you still can!


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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    Benefits and credits are there to be utilised by the most vulnerable in society and it is a great shame that some people abuse the privelage of living in a Welfare state. There does appear to be a consensus (not solely on here) that Tax Credit do not prosecute. As you have pointed out, that consensus is not accurate. They do and they will. They tend to be a lot lighter than DWP and LA's in that they will opt for civil recovery and penalty rather than prosecution wherever possible. It's rare that tax credit prosecutions are heard of in comparison to other benefit fraud prosecutions, and I think this is most probably where the confusion arises from. I've seen a sufficient amount of cases in my time to hazard a guess at a possible outcome but that is all it ever is, a guess based upon current guidance and what I've seen applied to the circumstances. HMRC have the final say in whether they will refer a case for prosecution.

    There have been a few expressions recently about the forum seemingly accepting fraud. Just to be absolutely clear, CAGicon does not condone fraud. As a consumer forum we will when it is possible to do so, provide information to those who come here willingly admitting fraud in regard to what they may face. What we will not do is advise people how to continue defrauding or 'cover their tracks' as the case may be.

    There are many threads which appear here on a daily basis, many threads will be removed so swiftly that others do not get the opportunity to know of their existance. Among these threads will be ones which are designed to encourage or promote fraud. They will be removed or responded to with CAGicon's position, depending on their individual content.

    My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    I've always wondered about the imaginary children thing. When I claimed child tax credits I had to give my child benefit number, so the person claiming fraudulently would have to do the same I imagine. How do they claim child benefit without a birth certificate?

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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    CHB is not a requirement for receiving tax credit, though it is often thought to be, and will be looked at in the case of a rival claim. I won't go into how it is done because that provides examples which would give some people ideas, but I've seen a lot of cases of fraud and in many of them it is not surprising the fraud continued for as long as it did, when you see how it has been done. Often, 'evidence' is provided to tax credit; often they are non the wiser that the applicant has no children because the 'evidence' appears to leave little doubt. All I'll say is that there are some well organised criminals out there. It is these sort of people who will barely escape a prosecution. In cases of fictional children, prosecution is usually a given.

    My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    Considering how normal people have to jump through hoops to get tax credits and other benefits I would think they would need to be well organised criminals with a better knowledge of the benefits system than the people who work in it.

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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    To Erika, thanks for the response. As I have mentioned, I am new to posting on the forum but not to viewing. I have never came across a thread/post encouraging or legitimizing fraud and that will be done to good adminicon.

    My views will differ greatly from many on the forum and I have withheld them as there is no point in berating someone in need at a time where they realise and accept their action.

    I actually admire the assistance this forum can provide and it may highlight an inadequacy within the government to assist those wishing to rid themselves of their ongoing fraud.

    But I must also offer my opinion that many are happy to let it continue until the letter falls through the door. It seems that at only this time people are hit by a wave of moral and social responsibility where acceptance of wrong is embraced.

    Save yourself (not aimed at you Erika) the stress of finding the letter. Correct it.


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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    Many of the threads are people realising they've done wrong before they receive the letter.


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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    I absolutely agree with you there, wee-fella. We don't have many threads where people don't show some level of remorse (albiet late) for their actions, coupled with the panic of what fate now befalls them. But that's not to say we don't get them. We do get threads where people think it's their God given right to defraud the state and whom display anger that they face prosecution; many of these people will seek in some way to push the blame onto others for issues of their own making; they will come here with a view to finding a way of getting out of prosecution. At CAGicon, we can't help people who hold that viewpoint.

    It's not always as straight forward as it seems. For some, they find it exceptionally difficult to budget. They have a change of circumstances or income, they are landed with bills they are struggling to pay and have become accustomed to the weekly money. They think "I'll tell them next month". But the next month brings another lot of bills, and before they know it, it's renewal time. They don't declare the change, frightened that tax credit will recoup coupious amounts from their current award and think if they leave it another month "I'll tell a white lie, that my circumstances income only changed this month". But the circle continues. For others, they live in what I call a 'trapped world'. After I had my children, their father turned into a drunk and an abuser. I became trapped in a world where he spent all his income on booze and gambling. I lived in fear of him, but in fear of any other life. I had no family or support system nearby. At that time as a stay at home mam, they only money going into my bank account was child benefit and tax credits. They went on the children - clothing, nappies, food, shoes. We also had pay as you go gas and electric. I had to use the tax credit/CHB to keep those going as well, especially in the winter. I spent weeks living on bread and water, the rent wasn't paid. I didn't commit fraud, I got free of him and got a job (something I wasn't 'allowed' to do whilst with him). But having been in that situation, it's slightly easier for me to see how desperate a person can be and how easy it can be to so something so wrong to be able to keep a roof over the little one's heads, food on the table. Abuse is a vicious circle, and leaving is not always as easy as it appears. I've seen many people who have has similar lives to what I had who went on to commit fraud as a means to survival. Their inability to budget and their circumstances does not in any way excuse their actions, but it may explain them a bit, how easy it is to fall into that trap. It's not a life I'd choose, constantly worrying that there would be a knock at the door.

    There is the other side of it too. The organised gangs, the fictional children, fictional disabilities, the people who will deliberately obtain a childcare provider's registration number to claim fictional childcare costs, and of course people who aren't especially organised, aren't struggling and who have fairly decent life circumstances who do it out of greed. There are no explanations for their actions. Some of the things I've seen are actually so sickening, and some so convincing that I felt compelled to post about it one day on here, though I did not go into too much details for the same reasons I gave in my earlier post.

    We are often a last resort for many people when that letter falls through the door. At that point, the fraud is frequently running into tens of thousands. Some are actually relieved that it's over though they panic about what comes next. All we can do when that time comes is advise them on what may or may not happen to them. Some people listen to us and some people don't. One of the things that will be found here (with me) is that I don't paint a pretty picture. I don't say to people "It'll be fine". Because it won't be 'fine' The only 'fine' there will be is a civil penalty or criminal fine. What I tend to do is tell them the options which are available to HMRC, what the outcomes can be, the possibility of only recovery and penalty if they admit compared to the possibility of prosecution if they don't. I also ensure people know that if providing an admission, it must be a full disclosure otherwise they may face further recovery and penalties or a prosecution. I'll tell them the likey outcome of their case but it's only a guestimate and unless they have provided me the full facts, it isn't going to be accurate let alone certain. That's all we can do, lay it out for people in black and white, provide enough information for them to make an informed decision. After that, it's up to them.

    A lot of posts don't get updates. Some are because people think they can still get away with it and choose to seek advice elsewhere (however incorrect doesn't matter to them, as long as they are told what they want to hear). Some are because people simply don't bother to let us know the outcome. But for others I often wonder if the reason they haven't responded may be because they have been incarcerated and have not yet built sufficient privelages to use the internet. It happens and that is the best piece of advise I can give to anyone seeking help on fraud who is searching through the threads looking for updates to other's similar predicaments. Think about why they haven't updated. There could be a multitude of reasons, but them being imprisoned and unable to update is certainly one of them - and we'll never know the difference.

    My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by natalie View Post
    Considering how normal people have to jump through hoops to get tax credits and other benefits I would think they would need to be well organised criminals with a better knowledge of the benefits system than the people who work in it.
    Oh they jump through them alright. With evidence. They are asked to provide evicence, no problem, they can provide it. Many people would be shocked at the stories I could tell at what I've seen but as I said I can't go into how some of it is done. What I can say is that it is done with evidence that looks so valid, that nobody would question it. Often if I myself did not have the contradictory evidence starting me in the face to show that the case is fraudulent, I wouldn't know any different. Some people who make false claims for children in tax credit are already falsely claiming CHB for that same child(ren) who do not exist. They don't need to know anything more about the system than anyone else, they just need to be able to come up with evidence that they are asked for, and they can do it.

    My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    We must have a national data base with every birth and death on it.
    My birth certificate has a number on it.
    If I had to have my national insurance number to get child benefit and my childs birth certificate as proof,you wernt allowed to send copies, then why is all of the information not tied to my national insurance number. How could I pretend to have more children than I do?


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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by natalie View Post
    Considering how normal people have to jump through hoops to get tax credits and other benefits I would think they would need to be well organised criminals with a better knowledge of the benefits system than the people who work in it.
    Please note: I am not saying anyone here on CAGicon does or has done this:

    I've come across posts on the internet where people have told others how to fill in forms fraudulently. I once challenged this because I believed what the person was saying was wrong. To which they "there's nothing wrong with doing that. I was told by CAB to do that".

    Many people I've come across have told others to fill in forms for disability living allowance (DLA) based on worst days - apparently, there's nothing wrong with doing this. It's only wrong if you say you need more help than you do - same thing, no?


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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    Gob smacked how large some of these tax credits overpayments are outing at!!!!!!!!!!! 18K

    This site is great advice to everyone and always will be I am sure.

    I do feel tax credits should come down as hard on overpayments where false details are given or altered and not notified in the same manner as benefits which has a set level as 2,000, not out of any cause of my own or vindictiveness, but you see how someone made a genuine mistake is terrified of what will happen for passing the set 2,000 and yet tax credits cases clearly getting out of hand are rising to extreme.

    How can anyone expect to overclaim near 20K and not have a risk of going to prison, sorry.

    People do get desperate and do silly things but there has to be no diffrence between tax credit fraud and any benefit fraud to discourage others from thinking tax credits will be a short term or in cases long term LOAN..

    Whilst disabled people on benefits are begging for what they need and losing it, tax credits claimants seem given an open check book expecting sorry to suffice, it has to stop xx


    Any sympathies I might have for anyone temporarily done a silly thing and willing to put right are being trampled over by the ones who seem to have been doing it for multiple years. Of course they will feel worried, they should be!!!!!!!! But will they get prosecuted like a labelled benefit scoundrel, I doubt it.

    Come on people the dwp is stuggling and the disabled are losing out and if more people sorted thier lives out and were honest from the start perhaps their might be more in the pott for those who genuinely cannot work as this type of help is sure begrudged.

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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    I think everything would be so much easier if we got rid of tax credits and just had tax allowances for having children. Which I believe is what happened before?


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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    Dear watchinginvestigation2011

    On behalf of all the desperate people on this forum who come here for some support and sympathetic factual advice without judgement or irrelevant opinions - THANK YOU!

    Thank you for making us feel even lower than we already did.

    Yes there is a difference with the way Govenment bodies deal with Fraud and I do agree with you that it can seem unfair but I dont see how this forum is the place to air your opinions regarding this matter, especially after you have read how many desperate people are on here looking for ADVICE. Not a soft ear, nor a harsh reprimand - just factual ADVICE. Yet you post such an insensitive opinion.

    Your opinion offers no solid factual advice and only puts the fear of God into already desperate (some SUICIDAL) people.

    I beleive that the type of people who visit this forum are not the people who Defraud the system for the sole purpose of greed with no remorse. The people who are here are usually in severe financial hardship and did not realise how much it was turning into. They have no idea the penalties/punishments for what they are doing and do not conciously think "oh well its tax credits ill get away with it" . Thats why they come here to get the SYMPATHETIC advice they are searching for without judgement. Not to flippently be told that they need to "sort their lives out".

    I am one of the genuine Disabled people who cannot work that you refer to in you post. I know how hard it is to access help. I stuggle physically every day on my own while my partner is forced to work a 40+ hour week for minimum wage.

    Im not condoning fraud in anyway I just find it a little harsh to be posting opinions that offer no advice or support to the people that come here searching for it.


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    Cagger since
    Feb 2011
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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    Where has WI said that it's true for all claimants of tax credits who run into those difficulties?


  20. #20
    Basic Account Holder CDJ755 Novitiate

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    Default Re: Tax credits do prosecute too !!!!

    I felt that watchinginvestigation2011 opinion refers to fraudulent tax credits claims in general.



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