Husband had minor accident at work.Didn't immediately report as thought it was very minor. Continued working. Over weekend (not working)problem became increasingly worse so ended up at A & E on the Monday ,then GP & is now off sick. Went into office to tell them on way back from A&E & next day got letter stating disciplinary hearing as 1)Didn't inform them of accident straight away 2) Didn't advise them that not working (works in personal care & was going to work later, arranged with Client), 3)Disclosure of identity data to third party (presumably me in office, but office worker kept saying clients name PLUS there was a child of a worker in the office the whole time!) 4)Failure to safeguard vulnerable adult (client who is independently living & aware of what was happening). He has had enough of the company. Think generally that it's a "culling" exercise as very small company & they have very large problems with high staff turnover although hubby been there 2.1/2 yrs. Have already sent email saying not sure if can attend meeting on date specified as need T.U. representation(he's a member).This was sent email & not acknowledged. Briefly speaking to TU Rep said that if he resigns before initial meeting, then they can't mention it in references. there is a potential other job on the horizon but obviously without references he has no chance of this or any other job! This all stemmed from 10 minutes in the office - no previous problems raised either in writing or verbally.1st time I've been to his office & if they'd spoken to me like they did to him I would have told them there & then to stick it,but he likes all his clients & gets on really well with them. Can anyone give further advice please? He doesn't care about leaving but obviously it's the reference part he doesn't want to muck up. He needs to make final decision before Monday night so he can email & we can drop letter off if necessary. Thanks a lot for any help/advice given.

Right. If he resigns whilst under investigation for a disciplinary matter, his employer can refer to that fact. The TU Rep is wrong.

And, if his employer refers to him having resigned whilst under investigation, many potential employers will see that as a strong indication that he was guilty.

He needs to face the accusation, if he's being wrongly accused.

He needs to get onto his union and tell them to buck their ideas up too. Most of them are bed-wetting gimps who live with their mothers.

Set out the full situation, and we'll have a look.

Use

Paragraphs.

That way

we can read what you have to say

Easily.

No more mono-block posts

Please.

Thanks for your reply and apologies for the mono-block! I promise to use paragraphs!

Letter from employers doesn't actually say he is "under investigation", just to "attend for a disciplinary meeting in relation to the following....etc". It doesn't actually set out much at all, apart from saying that "following your attendance at our office.....etc".As the letter was sent the day after he was in the office, there wouldn't have been much time for an "investigation" anyway!

We haven't met with TU person yet,spoke to one who was going on holiday & then another one this morning very briefly. The reason we're asking for advice on this forum is that after searching the internet, there are loads of sites saying "Yes, they can mention it if you resign" and loads of sites saying "No, they can't mention it....." Thought it would be better to get help from people who may have experienced the same or similar situation. Another thought we had was of saying to the company something along the lines of "I know you want to get rid of me so I'll resign now if you drop the disciplinary". As I said, it's a very small company and husband is probably the only person left there who is on more than basic wage (3 other employees on more than basic wage went within last month!).

Don't want long, protracted potential tribunal procedure. I say potential tribunal as personally I think that if he goes to the meeting, they are going to just say that he's done this, that and the other and then sack him, which means that we would look at a Tribunal. There are lots of things he could bring up against them if it went this way e.g. their lack of confidentiality when they've rung me on numerous occasions trying to get hold of him to do cover as they couldn't be bothered looking up their files to see where he was working; shifting his clients around on numerous occasions so he has to leave the more vulnerable & goes to the better paying ones(i.e. residential); making him go to meetings out of hours but not paying him for them (he's hourly paid); not covering his clients (or even contacting them) when he has been off or on holiday. The list could go on and on.I can't think of any more offhand but there are others.

I appreciate what you say about facing the accusation if he has been wrongly accused, and agree with you to a certain extent BUT we just don't want or need the hassle at the moment as I'm also facing redundancy/redeployment in the near future. If as indicated by their letter, they are just going on the accident and office visit, then he HAS been wrongly accused, & I can't wait to tell them that they were the ones who breached confidentiality/data by repeatedly naming the client in front of me!!! (that last sentence sounds as if he would be guilty if it wasn't to do with the accident/office visit - not meant to!!)

Again, thanks for you reply & any other advice would be welcome.

The TU Rep certainly wants reporting and almost certainly needs shooting before he does any more damage.

Resigning before a disciplinary hearing without a compromise agreement firstly being agreed (even if one is on offer) is every bit as bad, and in many cases worse, than going through the disciplinary and being dismissed.

A reference of any sort - and particularly in the care sector where particular care needs to be taken over reporting EVERYTHING accurately and honestly - will almost always ask the previous employer to confirm the reason for leaving, and 'Resigned whilst the subject of a disciplinary investigation for Gross Misconduct' is about as bad as it gets.

Far better to go through the process, refute all allegations and have a chance of having your say. There may be lack of evidence, procedural irregularities, mitigation, and then, even if dismissed, there is a chance of explaining the circumstances.

Thank you for your response. I must admit I wasn't too impressed with the TU Rep either, hence asking for advice on this site!

The things that they want the meeting for can be disputed

1) not immediately reporting an accident etc. - in the handbook it says accidents must be reported but doesn't give timescale. At the time of accident on Friday (a minor fall on a previously injured arm), he thought just bruising etc.AND he continued working as usual, even going to evening Client.It was only next day that it started stiffening up and the Sunday when arm became totally unuseable. Office not open over a weekend and it was reported to them on the Monday.

2)Failing to safeguard - client lives independently, he telephoned client & advised that he was going to Drs first & would then come & see her. After going to A & E went into office & told them & they said DON'T go & see her, even though I was going to drive him there & drop him off. He does bits of shopping for her & had checked before going to Drs that she didn't need anything & would be OK until later in the day.

3) Identity bit - in office they kept repeating Clients name(who he was with when he fell) in front of me (& child) AND other clients names etc. I said "Was **** running?" after they repeatedly mentioned the name - nothing else.

4) Not phoning them to tell them he wasn't going to work - he WAS going to work, even after A & E but they told him NOT to go. He only has the one client during the daytime on a Monday and that's only for 1.1/2 hrs so as stated previously, he'd already arranged with Client to go in later.

Also on letter they have said he can take a colleague (who can't speak) but no mention of TU Rep.at all.

Also forgot to say that he actually has interview in 10 days with more reputable firm, so the timing of his fall couldn't have been worse!!

If they have the "meeting" and they just decide that they're right and he's wrong, can they just get rid of him like that, i.e. instantly?? If so, does he have to appeal it or whatever or can he apply for a Tribunal straight away. If they don't get rid of him but decide that he's going to have a "Warning" or whatever on his record, can he also appeal that?? As it's a very small firm, I'm at a bit of a loss to know who is going to tell them whether or not they are right or wrong!

Final question, I've already sent email to company saying he may not be able to make original meeting date dependent on availability of TU Rep. (which date TU rep can't make anyway). TU Rep also says they can't make him attend a hearing whilst he's off sick, however I believe that they can as it's a physical injury rather than a mental one (ie stress). I'm ready to do a further letter to them requesting different date (to accommodate TU Reps availability) but don't want to push it too far re the sickness criteria. (He only gets Statutory Sick Pay).

Again, thanks for the advice.

tomorrow.

keep calm. Be HAPPY. Make bread.

It's Easter Sunday tomorrow. Such a special time. Thank God (comma) Tesco's open.

Hi there. It certainly seems from your account that there are very strong grounds for defending his position.

Just to answer the points that you raise - and a couple of related questions.

Yes they could dismiss at the meeting, although strictly speaking there should be an outline of the allegations and any evidence in support of the case, an opportunity for the employee to answer those allegations and to dispute any or all of the evidence, and opportunity to mitigate if any part of the case is accepted. The meeting should then adjourn whilst the decision is made - this may be for a few minutes, or the employee may be told to go home and await the decision. So it could be an 'instant' dismissal, or more commonly this will be delayed whilst all the facts are considered. Question - In the letter inviting your husband to the disciplinary meeting, was he informed that this relates to a matter which could lead to dismissal?

Yes, he has the legal right of appeal, which should ideally (but not necessarily) be heard by somebody other than the person who made the initial decision. The employee would be expected to have exhausted the appeal procedure before lodging the case with a Tribunal - it isn't a 'must', but could have consequences if the case were to proceed.

It would be reasonable for an employer to accept a postponement, but normally only one, after which they could hold the meeting in your husband's absence.

Question - what exactly has he been accused of? There should be something in the letter which says that '...you are accused of X, Y and Z which is contrary to your Terms and Conditions....'. What I am trying to get at is whether there is any indication that they are treating this as a relatively minor misdemeanour, or a matter of Gross Misconduct.

My gut feeling is that from what you have indicated is that this cannot be sufficiently seen as a a case of GM.

It's Easter Sunday tomorrow. Such a special time. Thank God (comma) Tesco's open.

No they aren't - well the big ones aren't anyway, just the Express stores.

Glad your Tesco's is open. Ours isn't!

No they aren't - well the big ones aren't anyway, just the Express stores.

Mine is. Sowerby Bridge. Replete with disproportionately expensive 241 offers that seem so good at the time, yet 4 days later your entire kitchen is a compost heap. Dear old Shirley Porter. How soon we forget.

Hello again.

To answer your question in the penultimate paragraph - the letter says:

"Following your visit to the office yesterday, you are required to attend a disciplinary hearing on....... to discuss the following:...." , then the 4 points raised, then tells him to "consult your staff handbook prior to the hearing and you may be accompanied by a colleague if you wish. Please note that they will not be able to speak on your behalf. You are required to confirm your attendance."

That's it. Oh, the only other thing of note is that in the last paragraph regarding not reporting the accident, it states that it is in "breech ((their spelling)) of our reporting procedures as stated in your staff handbook". We've gone through his staff handbook and both under injury at work and accident at work it only states that it must be reported, doesn't say within a specified period.

As stated previously, when it happened he thought it would just be a bruise and that's it, you know, something not worth reporting. I'm wondering whether or not they think he's reported it to make a claim or similar and they're covering themselves. For reference, he's not making a claim, we never even thought about this aspect until we were trying to work out where all this came from and realised that it might stem from this. With regard to the timescale of reporting, I actually reported an injury at work at my workplace over a year after it happened (too long to go into) and it was accepted.

Thanks again for you advice - invaluable and I shall now go to bed and sleep a bit easier! I won't be on site until tomorrow afternoon as working tomorrow a.m. but await any further responses with interest and a little bit of relief!

Paragraphs. still. I'm not that drunk, and yet I can't follow.

You need to calm down.

I'm calm, VERY calm - breathing in and out VERY slowly.

But also VERY angry and VERY worried!!

I AM doing paragraphs, aren't I???

Sorry, thought I was and have just seen that Sidewinder has paragraphed it to preserve Elpupo's sanity! Oops!

Back from work now, dinner and then back on site to see if any more advice please.

I plan on drafting the letter tonight, speaking to TU Rep about it (and available dates) tomorrow morning and then emailing and dropping it off.

Is it worth putting anything in the letter along the lines of "where's your investigation? " etc. etc. or should I keep it very brief and just say we can make this/whatever date and will be bringing TU Rep.

Also if meeting is held during week beginning 1st May which looks likely at the moment, then husband may well be back at work i.e. signed back to work by GP. Wonder what they'll do then?? Let him work as usual and still have meeting or suspend him??

Again, thanks in advance for any advice.

Right. Now I'll have a read.

Right. He should be allowed to be accompanied by either a colleague or a TU Representative. They are allowed to speak, if it is to address the hearing regarding the matter or to advise the colleague/union member. What the rep can't do is answer questions on his behalf.

If they're accusing him of offence(s) that could amount to GM, then they should warn him of that in their letter inviting him to the DH.

Arguably, someone who is facing an accusation of GM should be suspended. If he were to be allowed to continue working, it could undermine their argument that the misconduct amounted to GM.

I wouldn't write to them about their lack of investigation-it might prompt them to make one! This is something that can be used a tool at the DH.

Thank you.

Do you think that there is any chance that if I put a rocket under T U Rep that he might manage to get the whole thing dropped due to their non investigation, and their data/identity disclosures in front of me, and that they might agree to a consensual resignation without any mention of disciplinary hearing???

The main thing I'm worried about is that the company is owned by one person. That one person had the DH letter pp'd, couldn't even be bothered to sign it herself, and obviously any decision at the DH is hers and hers alone to make. IF she decides to go further and warn or dismiss husband, then there isn't anybody else in the company who could chair an appeal hearing. Only two other office employees, one does accounts and her daughter is general dogsbody.

On the plus side, I had a lovely dinner waiting for me when I got home from work this afternoon. If it wasn't for the money aspect, I could do with a full time househusband!

On the negative side, he's devastated by this whole scenario and is still leaning towards the "resign and stuff 'em" bit. I'm trying to talk some sense into him, but he's very non confrontational and I'm quite worried that if they don't accept any dates put forward by T U Rep and he has to go to meeting by himself, he's likely to just accept what they say just to get the whole thing over and done with. As I said in a previous post, I've only met them the once and if they spoke to me as an employee like they did to him, I would have told them where to put their job! Don't think that man-management is their forte!

Forgot to say, there is NO mention of GM at all in the letter. In fact the entire letter has been in my previous posts. The introductory para telling him to come to meeting on........... to discuss, then the four points raised, then the bit about bringing a colleague who can't speak etc. That's it.

Right. He should be allowed to be accompanied by either a colleague or a TU Representative. They are allowed to speak, if it is to address the hearing regarding the matter or to advise the colleague/union member. What the rep can't do is answer questions on his behalf.

 

If they're accusing him of offence(s) that could amount to GM, then they should warn him of that in their letter inviting him to the DH.

 

Arguably, someone who is facing an accusation of GM should be suspended. If he were to be allowed to continue working, it could undermine their argument that the misconduct amounted to GM.

 

I wouldn't write to them about their lack of investigation-it might prompt them to make one! This is something that can be used a tool at the DH.

I've always wanted a pair of snakeskin boots

We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that it doesn't appear at all like your OH has done anything so serious as to warrant his dismissal. And, having 2.5 years service, he has statutory employment rights.

It may not be that he'll be dismissed, and properly prepared he's got a good chance at least of putting such doubt in their minds that they'll back off. Then, in good time, he can find something else.

Does he have a copy of the company's disciplinary & grievance procedure? He needs to scrutinise that and find as many failures in their procedure as possible.

If the employer doesn't have such a procedure, or has failed to provide him with it, refer to this

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2174

The investigation argument really depends on the facts of the situation. In some circumstances, the facts of the accusation are such that it's not really necessary to hold an investigation, and the employer can proceed straight to the disciplinary procedure.

Well prepared, he should be able to contest this. They might dismiss, but I think then he'd have a clear case in the ET. Obviously, I don't know the ins and outs of this situation or of the care industry, but it simply doesn't seem that he's guilty of GM.

I'd strongly advise against trying to come to some agreement with them where he resigns in exchange for a reference. That could backfire.

Top advice above. IMO no cause for dismissal whatsoever, and probably not even worthy of a disciplinary.

I've always wanted a pair of snakeskin boots

????

Thank you Elpulpo and Sidewinder. I am now going to scrutinise the disciplinary and grievance section in his employee handbook. As I'm shattered, it might be my bedside reading. If I have any queries on what I find, I'll ask you tomorrow if I may?

Care industry is quite a sensitive place to work, as it should be. However husband has been in this sector for about 9.1/2 years now and is fully conversant with the do's and don't's of working with vulnerable adults. We both also have experience of family members who have been classified as "vulnerable", one due to dementia and one due to L.D. I'm also enhanced CRB checked due to my work and, again due to work have been on several data protection courses, same as husband has. What I'm trying to say is that even though I don't work in the care industry, I'm not a complete novice at dealing with "vulnerable" people and we both fully understand all the implications involved in dealing with them. Which is why this has come as such a shock I think.

Time for my bedside reading.

Originally Posted by elpulpo

I've always wanted a pair of snakeskin boots[/Quote]

 

????

 

He's from Barcelona...

I've always wanted a pair of snakeskin boots

Think my befuddled brain has just got it!

Going through the whole handbook. Interesting bit in Disciplinary Procedures where it says that

"other than for an "off the record" informal reprimand, you have the right to be accompanied by a fellow employee, who may act as a witness or speak on your behalf, at all stages of the formal disciplinary process".

Not what it says in their letter!

Also:

"you will only be disciplined after careful consideration of the facts & the opportunity to present your side of the case".

Well they certainly gave "careful consideration of the facts" as the letter was sent the next day.

"You should report all accidents, no matter how minor, in the accident book in your office". (No time specified, and it was!)

Interesting book this handbook. Like watching paint dry. More to come tomorrow.