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Can anybody tell me if it is completely legal for companies to blackmail me into paying by direct debit? Most companies are now charging a non direct debit fee.
I left orange for charging 2 pounds 50 per month, and NTL want 4 pounds per month.
In conversation over the phone I have asked sales representitives, why they are "charging me to pay them" They tell me it is to cover their proccessing fees. But shouldnt a company be responsible for their own expenses. I pay them for their service, and paying my bill is not a service.
Imagine having to pay the checkout assistant in a supermarket for the pleasure of shopping there! Imagine if I had to pay them to take my money! It is thankfully still up to the supermarket to pay their staff. Why not so with phone services, pay TV and other services?
Every month, just pay the bill, minus the handling charge. Tell them that paying your bill is a service you provide to them, so if anyone's going to levy a charge for it, it's you. However, you should also tell them that if they provide a Breakdown of the marginal costs involved in paying by card or cheque, you will pay those costs (typically, all stages of a card transaction will be covered by 50p, as folk like IKEA and Spar franchisees have told us). It's important that it's the marginal cost, not the average cost. I don't care about their other card-paying customers, all I care about is how much more it costs them to process my card transaction, so their fixed costs are irrelevant.
Imagine having to pay the checkout assistant in a supermarket for the pleasure of shopping there! Imagine if I had to pay them to take my money! It is thankfully still up to the supermarket to pay their staff. Why not so with phone services, pay TV and other services?
Never thought of it like that!! bl**dy cheeck another 2 companies to call!! t.moble and telewest.
you do pay the supermarket staff - do you think the money for them pops out of thin air?
By not paying by dd you are incurring the company costs, not just on the initial payment but on banking and manual handling etc of the payment. Or more likely than not if you try asking how much it costs them they will say they are giving a discount to those paying by dd not charging those who don't.
Or more likely than not if you try asking how much it costs them they will say they are giving a discount to those paying by dd not charging those who don't.
Yes, but the cost of processing the payment is a business cost entirely unrelated to the service they provide to us.
you do pay the supermarket staff - do you think the money for them pops out of thin air?
By not paying by dd you are incurring the company costs, not just on the initial payment but on banking and manual handling etc of the payment. Or more likely than not if you try asking how much it costs them they will say they are giving a discount to those paying by dd not charging those who don't.
i can confirm that that is the attitude of telewest. although it shows as a seperate charge on my bill.
In that case, you have two conflicting statements. Either way, UTCCR does say that if something isn't clear, the most favourable interpretation to the consumer is to be inferred.
ummm, yeah. I know the supermarket pay their staff, but I dont pay an extra four pounds everytime I use their services. The cost is subtly in my shopping. What you might have missed is that the price of your phone bill didnt drop when they started direct debit. All they did was sack a lot of staff who take the payments, whilst maintaining their profits.
Some companies eg NPower offer a direct debit discount. This is an incentive to pay, not a punishment for paying the traditional way. Interestingly, I have also found their staff far happier and more relaxed on the phone.
Interesting that they say it costs them money to take my payment. I suspect it costs them more not to take my payment. Furthermore, an online payment is little more than an electrical signal between computers. Even if you allow for the most unmotivated accounts person to process my payment, it cant take more than 5 minutes of adminisration. 12 x 4 pounds. this person at NTL is earning 48 pounds per hour. I dont think so.
The fact that so many consumers accept this logic is very, very disturbing to me. I suspect that somebody who cares enough could win a court case on this, and perhaps reverse the trend.
Its a big bug bear with me, i currently pay £20 per month to companies who charge for non dd payments! the reason i dont pay by dd is because if a bill is bigger than normal i prefer to pay it online when i can afford it not when they want to take it, thus i dont incurr charges from the bank each time for bounced dd's
I QUESTION THEREFORE I AM!!
Unfortunately i'm not an expert in any given field legally and my advice and that of the Consumer Action Group and the Bank Action Group is given without prejudice and without liability so please if in any doubt whatsoever seek help from an insured qualified professional. Contents of my posts are purely my own personal opinions and not condoned or endorsed in any way, shape or form by CAG. Thank you!
Every month, just pay the bill, minus the handling charge. Tell them that paying your bill is a service you provide to them, so if anyone's going to levy a charge for it, it's you..
This doesn't work - as my forthcoming action against Sky Subsctiber Services will testify. As for NTL, I paid the £2pm (£24pa) as a price of doing business with the company. When they raised this fee to £48pa I threatened I'd leave, and the solution was to provide a quarterly credit of £12 each quarter to my account. This was done, and provided I remember to call them each quarter, I'm better off now that I had been.
We need the OFT to extend their interest in Bank charges to address these non-DDM fees. We've gone from getting a DISCOUNT if paying by DDM to being charged a PREMIUM if we don't. This has become endemic and affects those responsible enough to manage their own finances, as well as those who dislike or do not wish to use banks.
Exactly okonski, i agree entirely with you! we shouldn't be made to pay by dd and something should be done about it! maybe if we all wrote to oft to complain it might get looked at! if all the members on here alone did it they would have nearly 70,000 complaints!
I QUESTION THEREFORE I AM!!
Unfortunately i'm not an expert in any given field legally and my advice and that of the Consumer Action Group and the Bank Action Group is given without prejudice and without liability so please if in any doubt whatsoever seek help from an insured qualified professional. Contents of my posts are purely my own personal opinions and not condoned or endorsed in any way, shape or form by CAG. Thank you!
Interesting that they say it costs them money to take my payment. I suspect it costs them more not to take my payment. Furthermore, an online payment is little more than an electrical signal between computers.
This was an argument put forward to me by Sky. I may reluctantly accept that someone who pays them by Cheque, PO or cash may cost them marginally more to process, however in my case I remitted electronically, a case of Direct Credit, rather than direct debit. In each case the end result is the same, yet they want me to pay extra for not taking the paperwork to the bank for crediting.
If the OFT could rule that anyone paying by bank transfer HAS to be treated in the same way as a DDM customer, it'll go a long way in retressing this inbalance.
Perhaps i'll have a go at drafting a suitable complaint letter?
I QUESTION THEREFORE I AM!!
Unfortunately i'm not an expert in any given field legally and my advice and that of the Consumer Action Group and the Bank Action Group is given without prejudice and without liability so please if in any doubt whatsoever seek help from an insured qualified professional. Contents of my posts are purely my own personal opinions and not condoned or endorsed in any way, shape or form by CAG. Thank you!
Perhaps i'll have a go at drafting a suitable complaint letter?
This would be to NTL...? As the system currently stands, this won't work as there is no mechanism supposedly in place that would permanently remove the £4.00. I was told that even if the agent removed it, the would be automatically be reapplied next time a credit was made without it being via a DDM.
The only solution is to agree a sundry credit, so whilst I don't pay it (the £4 non DD overcharge), it is still billed as normal, but refunded quarterly in advance. Only NTL's retentions department have the authority to do this.
Thanks Okonski, that is a good solution. I have been calling up, and paying over the phone my bill, minus the fee. Speaking to the NTL payment people seems to be the only way to do this.
I now owe them four months of non DD fees and rising. Last time I paid I was told I may be charged a late payment fee for not paying the non DD fee. Hmm, a fee on a fee.
I really dont want to look for a new internet provider, since at least the product is acceptable with NTL, and it sounds like a lot of others are not.
So I need to speak to the disconnections department, and negotiate to stay only if I get credited 4 pound per month, and then pay the full amount?
Thanks Okonski, that is a good solution. I have been calling up, and paying over the phone my bill, minus the fee. Speaking to the NTL payment people seems to be the only way to do this.
I now owe them four months of non DD fees and rising. Last time I paid I was told I may be charged a late payment fee for not paying the non DD fee. Hmm, a fee on a fee.So I need to speak to the disconnections department, and negotiate to stay only if I get credited 4 pound per month, and then pay the full amount?
You'll need to do this quickly, as even if your monthly spend with them is £80, it doesn't matter to their billing system if you've paid £68 of it - the 'missing' £12 will generate an automatic disconnection, followed by the mandatory £20 reconnection. As I've BTDT, it does get resolved, but it is a long process and only worthwhile if you can squeeze compensation out of them.
I'm minded to create a Template letter to the OFT and try and have it uploaded here for those of us concerned at how out consumer rights are being whittled away due to these unfair terms. I'll do it this weekend and advise here.
I've always maintained, both here, and with NTL themselves, that if they will disclose the actual marginal cost of processing my payment (the average cost is irrelevant - which I will explain soon enough), I will pay that cost.
Marginal cost represents how much more it costs them to take N+1 manual payments instead of just N. This is relevant, rather than the average cost, because if I choose to not pay by DD (I will pay by DD when they can get my bills right and not before!), then it is this marginal cost that they incur as a result of my actions.
Marginal cost represents how much more it costs them to take N+1 manual payments instead of just N. .
I see exactly where you are coming from, but as there are different ways of paying, each will have its associated costings;
DDM
Paypoint
BACS Credit/Home Banking
Cheque*
Postal Order*
Cash*
Credit Card per paymernt**
Debit Card per payment**
Credit Card Continuous mandate
Debit Card continuous mandate
* Either by post to the payment centre or cash at a payment office
** Online via a secure web page and/or by voice call to provide details
If these 10 payment methods are ranked in order of the processing cost, we might be more sympatheric however I remain convinced this is no the issue. Consultants saythe easist way to get paid is to take it yourself from your customer, and this is why DDM is promoted at the expense of every other payment method.
I see exactly where you are coming from, but as there are different ways of paying, each will have its associated costings;
True, which is why it needs to be specifically the marginal cost of N+1 of the particular type of payment you are making. In my case, card transactions.
Non direct debit fees
? Most companies are now charging a non direct debit fee.
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Re: Non direct debit fees
Originally Posted by Biggsy
