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8 Year Old Council Tax Bill - Searched Other Threads But Need Clarification Please!


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Morning!

A pal has just moved back to a local authority in England in which he was last resident back in 2003. Last week he received a Council tax bill for the remaining months of 2010/11.

 

Yesterday he received a letter demanding that he contact their office within the next 7 days to discuss payment arrangements pertaining to two addresses in which they claim he was resident between 2001 and 2003. Failure to do so will result in them passing the matter to their enforcement agent.

 

I am dealing with this as he's not exactly internet savvy. I've just searched previous threads on this board. There's lots of info (lots for Scotland which tells a tale about their system I guess!) but not much for England, so just wanted clarify a couple of points if someone's got a mo for me?

 

1. Am I correct in thinking that if the Council has failed to obtain a liability order from the Courts within 6 years specifically from the date that BILLING (presumably that will be around the date he moved in?) began (rather than the date of any "default"), that the item is Statute Barred and they cannot use the Courts System to recover any alleged debt?

 

2. Am I also correct in understanding that the only thing can do as a consequence is to continue to attempt to recover the debt by use of their own/outside DCAs?

 

3. If they have failed to obtain a liability order within 6 years of the original billing date, and they decide to attempt to collect this alleged debt directly/via a private bailiff firm, is either party able to do anything other than simply send letters and knock on the door? Or are they able to go to Court and seek some sort of legal enforcement or perhaps bankruptcy? I other words, what's the worst they can do?

 

4. If a liability order was sought in the past (he's not sure if it was or not but the term "rings a bell"!) for an amount which was settled, can that liability order be used to seek further payment from a different period in the future at the same address or perhaps even a different address?

 

5. Can the Council seek to perhaps amalgamate the new bill for his current address with what they allege he owes from the past?

 

6. Can the Council refuse a payment plan for his new bill at his new address whilst they claim there is an old amount outstanding? I ask as looking at his new bill this morning, I notice that where they show the total amount owing for the period 11/10 to 03/11, in the instalment plan box below that they've entered the whole amount as one instalment due on Jan 1st!

 

Finally (and I really appreciate you reading all of this!) am I correct in thinking that the way forward from here is to write the Council a :

"This is not an acknowledgement of any debt - Please forward all previous billing information pertaining to the accounts that you allege I owe. Also please forward copies of Liability Orders obtained within 6 years of the original billing date of the accounts that you allege that I owe" letter?

 

Is that the correct content/wording/terminology or is there anything specifically that he should or shouldn't be including

 

Really appreciate your help. This is what happens after a couple of Friday shandies and mentioning "There's a website I know..."...Doh!

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1. Am I correct in thinking that if the Council has failed to obtain a liability order from the Courts within 6 years specifically from the date that BILLING (presumably that will be around the date he moved in?) began (rather than the date of any "default"), that the item is Statute Barred and they cannot use the Courts System to recover any alleged debt? Yes

 

2. Am I also correct in understanding that the only thing can do as a consequence is to continue to attempt to recover the debt by use of their own/outside DCAs? No - they can still use the Bailiff, Attachment of Earnings, Bankruptcy etc

 

3. If they have failed to obtain a liability order within 6 years of the original billing date, and they decide to attempt to collect this alleged debt directly/via a private bailiff firm, is either party able to do anything other than simply send letters and knock on the door? Or are they able to go to Court and seek some sort of legal enforcement or perhaps bankruptcy? I other words, what's the worst they can do? If they did not obtain a LO and it is now SB then they can just go Foxtrot Oscar

 

4. If a liability order was sought in the past (he's not sure if it was or not but the term "rings a bell"!) for an amount which was settled, can that liability order be used to seek further payment from a different period in the future at the same address or perhaps even a different address? No

 

5. Can the Council seek to perhaps amalgamate the new bill for his current address with what they allege he owes from the past? Possibly depends on circumstances

 

6. Can the Council refuse a payment plan for his new bill at his new address whilst they claim there is an old amount outstanding? No I ask as looking at his new bill this morning, I notice that where they show the total amount owing for the period 11/10 to 03/11, in the instalment plan box below that they've entered the whole amount as one instalment due on Jan 1st! Don't forget that CT is liable to be paid in full by the 1 April each year but you are given a chance to pay in 10 equal instalments the last being due on 1 Jan. In most cases like this they may allow negotiation to allow payment to be completed by the end of the financial year.

 

Finally (and I really appreciate you reading all of this!) am I correct in thinking that the way forward from here is to write the Council a :

"This is not an acknowledgement of any debt - Please forward all previous billing information pertaining to the accounts that you allege I owe. Also please forward copies of Liability Orders obtained within 6 years of the original billing date of the accounts that you allege that I owe" letter? No

 

Is that the correct content/wording/terminology or is there anything specifically that he should or shouldn't be including

 

Really appreciate your help. This is what happens after a couple of Friday shandies and mentioning "There's a website I know..."...Doh!

 

What he does need to do is to contact them or the bailiff will turn up and the monies if owing will have increased then. He needs to ask:

 

1 - how many Liability Orders they have

2 - exactly what periods of time they cover - and do these fit in with when he moved etc.

3 - how much each one is for

4 - how much is still outstanding on each

 

They obviously want to discuss first as it has not YET been passed on for enforcement.

 

PT

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ctax cannot be statute barred.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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your friend is liable for the sums unless he can prove he was not resident at the times they are claiming for.

 

they will get a liability order and they will send bailiffs

 

it is better to contact the council and get this sorted.

 

if he contends he was not htere, then he need evidential proof

 

if he was there, and or in s a share sadly he is liable for the full owing.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Council Tax is subject to its own limitation period under reg 34(3) Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement) Regs 1992. The local authority may not apply for a liability order after 'the period of six years beginning with the day is becomes due'.

 

In a nut-shell, the 6 years runs from when the demand for payment is served on the taxpayer (Regentford v Thanet District Council [2004] EWCH 246). Under reg19 the local authority should serve a demand on a liable person 'on or as soon as practicable after the day the billing authority first sets the amount of council tax for the relevant year'.

 

If they have obtained a liability order within the timescale it would be hard to challenge as in effect they have for ever to claim the money.

Any advice I give is honest and in good faith.:)

If in doubt, you should seek the opinion of a Qualified Professional.

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ctax cannot be statute barred.

 

dx

 

They have to apply for a LO before 6 years of it becoming due otherwise they can do nothing. Not come across any Council who have let a one slip through like this yet. Some are being chased for CT that is 15 years or more as the Council got a LO at the time. As times are getting hard more and more Councils are digging up old cases and for small amounts.

 

PT

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tnx pots

 

didn't realise that. though ofcourse as you've pointed out, 90% got an LO at the time.

 

so no LO = 6year rule!

 

like that!

!

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

What he does need to do is to contact them or the bailiff will turn up and the monies if owing will have increased then. He needs to ask:

 

1 - how many Liability Orders they have

2 - exactly what periods of time they cover - and do these fit in with when he moved etc.

3 - how much each one is for

4 - how much is still outstanding on each

 

They obviously want to discuss first as it has not YET been passed on for enforcement.

 

PT

 

So in a nutshell the letter should be "this is not an acknowledgement of any debt" followed by the questions you have stated?

 

I can see your reasoning if that is the case - He only needs to discuss the LOs as if they haven't been applied for within the time the law allows, there's stuff-all they can do to collect any outstanding tax anyway?

 

Is that about right?

 

Just want to say also, thank you so much to all those who have replied. :-)

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Hmmm.

Just had another thought.

 

Presuming that the Council did not gain an LO within the time allowed by the law:

 

He has to pay his "new" Council Tax bill for the period November 2010 to the end of the financial year by January.

 

If he pays it, are they allowed to divert that payment to an account they claim is outstanding?

 

What about if he sends payment by cheque rather than blindly transferring it, along with an accompanying letter stating "The amount of the cheque enclosed is to settle account Council tax at pertaining to the address and dates stated in your letter ref number whatever, which was dated so and so date, and is not to be used for any other purpose"?

As I said, without an LO in the time the law allowed, could they ignore the letter and divert the payment to the any account they allege is outstanding?

 

Without an LO within the time the law allowed, could they add what the claim to be owed to the new account?

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So in a nutshell the letter should be "this is not an acknowledgement of any debt" followed by the questions you have stated? Sorry but you cannot use that at all. He must contact the Council, as his head has reared itself again they will press ahead with enforcement if he fais to respond to them. CT liability is only a simple yes or no answer, the why's and wherefores do not enter into it. He cannot use the dealing with the Council excuse as you have to pay regardless of any discussions and if afterwards it is then found it was wrong you get reimbursed.

I can see your reasoning if that is the case - He only needs to discuss the LOs as if they haven't been applied for within the time the law allows, there's stuff-all they can do to collect any outstanding tax anyway? If they never got the LO within 6 years of it being due then no they cannot do anything. If they did obtain it then he has to pay, and they will want it all immediately as it is overdue. A payment plan may be available and if he is on certain Benefits then an Attachment to Benefits is possible.

 

Is that about right?

 

Just want to say also, thank you so much to all those who have replied. :-)

 

PT

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Hmmm.

Just had another thought.

 

Presuming that the Council did not gain an LO within the time allowed by the law:

 

He has to pay his "new" Council Tax bill for the period November 2010 to the end of the financial year by January.

 

If he pays it, are they allowed to divert that payment to an account they claim is outstanding?

 

What about if he sends payment by cheque rather than blindly transferring it, along with an accompanying letter stating "The amount of the cheque enclosed is to settle account Council tax at pertaining to the address and dates stated in your letter ref number whatever, which was dated so and so date, and is not to be used for any other purpose"?

As I said, without an LO in the time the law allowed, could they ignore the letter and divert the payment to the any account they allege is outstanding?

 

Without an LO within the time the law allowed, could they add what the claim to be owed to the new account?

 

You are complicating the matter before finding out what needs to be paid - if anything - for a past account. It will be 2 separate matters. He needs to find out separately what is owing from the past.

 

PT

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So in a nutshell the letter should be "this is not an acknowledgement of any debt" followed by the questions you have stated? Sorry but you cannot use that at all. He must contact the Council, as his head has reared itself again they will press ahead with enforcement if he fais to respond to them. CT liability is only a simple yes or no answer, the why's and wherefores do not enter into it. He cannot use the dealing with the Council excuse as you have to pay regardless of any discussions and if afterwards it is then found it was wrong you get reimbursed.

 

So PT, (sorry to sound daft, just like to be accurate) are you saying not to use the line "This is not an acknowledgement of any debt" and simply ask them to respond to the questions you originally suggested?:

 

1 - how many Liability Orders they have

2 - exactly what periods of time they cover - and do these fit in with when he moved etc.

3 - how much each one is for

4 - how much is still outstanding on each

 

Presumably in their reply to that letter they need to supply photocopies of the actual orders. Or is he expected to take their word for it?

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So PT, (sorry to sound daft, just like to be accurate) are you saying not to use the line "This is not an acknowledgement of any debt" and simply ask them to respond to the questions you originally suggested?: Yes - totally not relevant

 

1 - how many Liability Orders they have

2 - exactly what periods of time they cover - and do these fit in with when he moved etc.

3 - how much each one is for

4 - how much is still outstanding on each

 

Presumably in their reply to that letter - ring them - they need to supply photocopies of the actual orders. No Or is he expected to take their word for it? They have no reason for telling porkies

 

PT

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You are complicating the matter before finding out what needs to be paid - if anything - for a past account. It will be 2 separate matters. He needs to find out separately what is owing from the past.

 

PT

I take your point, but it is still a relevant question, particularly as payment for the new account is due this month and the Council may choose not to respond that quickly - If they haven't obtained a liability order for the old alleged debt, couldn't they still take any payment they receive for the new account as settlement for the old. As although they can't fight to recover the old debt through the court without an LO, they are entitled to attempt to recover the debt through their own actions or those of a DCA?

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I appreciate all of your answers to my questions so far PT, but I have to say, I have always been taught that in any situation where you are dealing with an organisation, particularly where they are claiming that they are a creditor, regardless of whether or not the debtor is liable, you always, always, always deal in writing only and never ever by telephone.

 

Mistakes are made, and dare I say it, creditors do indeed tell "porkies" in order to obtain monies. I am sure cash-strapped local Councils are no different.

 

To that end I have knocked up the following incorporating your extremely helpful advice. I would be interested to read what you and other Caggers think of it:

 

Dear ** *****.

Thank you for your letter dated *** pertaining

to Council Tax at **** ***** ***** ****.

 

The last time I lived in this County was some years ago. To enable me to

resolve this matter appropriately and as quickly as possible with the

Council, would you please provide me with the following information?

 

1. The number of liability orders that **** ***** Council have in my name.

2. The dates that each of these Liability Orders cover.

3. The amount that each of these Liability Orders is for

4. The amount that remains outstanding on each of these Liability Orders

5. The date upon which any of the amounts outstanding were passed for

enforcement, if indeed any of them have been.

 

I would be grateful if you would also please provide me with

photocopies of each of the Liability Orders. I would be happy to use

the Subject Access Request process in order to obtain these copies if

you would prefer.

 

In any case, I would ask that you please allow 28 days before passing

this matter for any enforcement in order that I can receive and

respond appropriately to the information that you provide me with in

response to this letter.

 

I have sent this letter using Special Delivery Next Day, to

demonstrate my wish to work with the Council to resolve this matter

as quickly as possible.

 

Naturally, the Council Tax pertaining to my current address is a

separate matter and I shall settle the amount due for the period that

you billed me for on ** **** ** by the due date of *** ***.

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actually might not it be a good idea to also 'guess' [which will be obvious] which court 'might' have issued the LO's and phone them up monday and ask

 

that way, atleast you will know what pitch the council are bowling on here.

 

i'm not saying the council would be telling porkies as such here, but, this way you will know for sure what they can and cannot threaten

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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if you are going to represent someone, then you will need them to confirm this, the council might be able to do it over the phone

i'e, hello i'm xyz, you are chasing me for outstanding ctax, here is my friend whom i'm quite happy to be allowed to discuss such matters with you

 

or your friend might have to do it in writing for them to accept it.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Ok, if you are going to do the letter may I advise you do it by email. Reason being that to do it by letter at this time of year and given the weather - we haven't had any post since 24 November where i live - is probably going to take too long and knowing the Council they will be working to deadlines. Be in no doubt they will instruct Bailiffs if they see no progress. As for putting the current payment towards an old debt which your friend may or may not owe will not happen.

 

If you ring the Magistrates Court local to the Council they will tell you they do not have records going back that long. That does not mean to say the LO doesn't exist. The Council unfortunately do not have to prove they sent it, it is enough to say it was posted, just remember the Interpretation Act. I can only reiterate that a phone call to the Council will elicit the information you require - please have a read of some of the threads in the Bailiff Forum where this crops a lot.

 

PT

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