Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)

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  1. #1
    Basic Account Holder ESAHeadache Novitiate

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    Default Won esa appeal help what does this mean??

    I have won my appeal but am unsure which group I shall be put into this is what the decision notice says.

    The Appeal Is Allowed.

    The Decision Of The Secetary Of State Issued On 12/01/2010 Is set asideicon.

    The Tribunal Considers Descriptor 16 (b) Intiating and Sustaining Personal Action Is Appropriate And So 15 Points Are Awarded.

    This Will Passport Mr (My Name) To Schedule 3 Descriptor 10 (b).

    What group will I be put into I read up and schedule 3 descriptors mean limited capabiliy for work related activity. Wanted to confirm with people who have knowledge on hear.


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    Default Re: Won esa appeal help what does this mean??

    Schedule 3 pertains to people who have limited capability for work related activity therefore cannot be placed within the Work Related Activity Group, so are to be placed in the Support Group (though they can partake in work related activity if they volunteer to do so). You only need to meet one of the descriptors in schedule 3 to be placed within the Support Group, and the descriptor 16 (b) in schedule 2 awards the 15 points which brings you straight to descriptor 10 (b) of schedule 3.

    You will be placed in the Support Group.

    The tribunal should have explained that to you, it's good practice to place it in terms that the claimant can reasonably be expected to understand.

    My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Won esa appeal help what does this mean??

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikaPNP View Post
    The tribunal should have explained that to you, it's good practice to place it in terms that the claimant can reasonably be expected to understand.
    Absolutely. This sort of thing makes me ratty (or used to, I should say). And to be honest, most of the processors who would be expected to implement this decision won't know what "This Will Passport Mr (My Name) To Schedule 3 Descriptor 10 (b)" means and what the implications are either, because that's DM language, not AO (processor, for those following along at home, heh) language. If it was AO language it would read "Processor should enter code 02 in dialogue 674 and ensure this is correctly reflected in dia 200/405 before ending to issue arrears"

    Of course, that makes no sense to customers either. The Tribunal would, ideally, state "put this person in the support group because...." and then use the legal language. That way everyone's happy. The customer is happy because they can understand what's going on, the processor is happy because they know what to do, and the DM is happy because the case won't be referred to them unnecessarily.

    Interestingly, I was seeing increasing numbers of Tribunal results saying things like "This feeble excuse for a 'medical' wasn't worth the paper the result is written on. At the very least, ATOS and the DWP should be following their own guidelines."


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    Angry Re: Won esa appeal help what does this mean??

    Well you will be surprised called DWP and were advised i've been put in the work related group and this is according to the decision. So I called my representative to confirm and he advised no the decision on the tribunal clearly states support group so I called the tribunal and luckily spoke to a judge who advised that the last paragraph does mean I should be in the support group.

    Im surprised at the fact that these schedules are made by the DWP so how could they be so incompetent not to know exactly which group I should be in. The DWP have asked me to ask the tribunal to forward them a letter signed by the judge saying I should be in the support group and highlight reasons and the decision will be ammended accordingly.

    Im quite upset and angry at the fact if they are saying they have gone by the decision of the tribunal and numerous body say exactly the same that I should be according to the last paragraph schedule 3 descriptor 10 (b) then why is it that the DWP are not doing the job right and putting people like me through another ordeal as the appeal wasn't enough to stress me out.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Won esa appeal help what does this mean??

    Antone may confirm and I know this is stressful for you, but it could be part of the general scene of thousands of appeals and then staff who may not be properly trained or don't understand what should happen. No excuse, but as Antone will tell you, the majority of DWP staff aren't malevolent. I won't say it's not disappointing and I guess they could make savings by getting it right the first time round.

    I hope you get some answers that help you.

    My best, HB

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    Default Re: Won esa appeal help what does this mean??

    Hi Honeybee,

    Thanks for your comment I spoke to the contact centre about 3 times today and finally spoke to a decision maker or the appeal section and they advised me the same that we are looking at the decision as we speak and you are in the correct group which is work related.
    Its hard to understand if they are not disputing the tribunal decision and the tribunal have said that i have met the criteria for support group and therefore the decision they made is to put me in the support group why are DWP so annoying. Why can't they do their job right for once. If we made a simple mistake they would either prosecute or sanction benefit.


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    Default Re: Won esa appeal help what does this mean??

    I would be tempted to complain to the tribunal that the Secretary of State is ignoring their decision.

    Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.
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    Default Re: Won esa appeal help what does this mean??

    Hi Zamzara,

    I have done exactly that and guess what after 4 days of arguing with the DWP today finally they gave in and put me in the support group after a angry call from one of the clerks at the tribunals service. Im so glad finally this nightmare is over thankyou very much for leaving a comment on this post. Wish me luck now to recovery lol


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    Default Re: Won esa appeal help what does this mean??

    Hi the way i understand the process is that although the Tribunal can make a decision as to what you group you are in they cannot enforce it!!!!!!!!!! there is a memo knocking around which will still allow a DM (decision maker) to ask for a statement of reasons from the Tribunal panel to decide on what group you are in. Glad you have given them a black eye.


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    Default Re: Won esa appeal help what does this mean??

    The DWP can ask for a statement of reasons, yes. This is basically a statement from the tribunal which gives the reasons for their decision. They cannot just ignore the tribunal's decision and implement their own, though - they must follow the relevant procedure.

    If, after reading the statement of reasons, the DWP disagree with the Tribunal's decision they can apply to the Tribunal for permission to appeal to the Upper Tier Tribunal - but they can only do so on a point of law.

    TS do not have to grant permission for this, but if they do, the appeal will go to the Upper Tier tribunal (UtT) who will consider all of the facts of the case and the issues raised in DWP's appeal to decide if the First Tier tribunal (FtT) erred on a point of law in reaching their determination. If the UtT decides the FtT has erred in law, he can either substitute the decision himself or he can direct a new tribunal hearing.

    A claimant also has the right to appeal to the UtT on a point of law.

    Unless the DWP are appealing to the UtT, or there are other reasons why the FtT decision cannot be implemented immediately (see below) they must implement the FtT's decision.

    There may be other reasons why FtT decisions cannot be implemented straight away, because of accidental error or because they are unclear in the context of the case. In these circumstances the DWP should seek clarification from the Tribunals Service. The only other thing that would prevent a FtT decision from being implemented would be where a party to the proceedings (claimant or DWP) applies for a set asideicon of the decision.

    My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

    Please do not seek, offer or produce advice on a consumer issue via private message; it is against forum rules to advise via private message, therefore pm's requesting private advice will not receive a response.
    (exceptions for prior authorisation)


    If my advice has been helpful, please show your gratitude by taking a moment to click on the star icon on the bottom strip of my post






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