Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

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  1. #1
    Basic Account Holder adelburn Novitiate

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    Default Invited to a disciplinary hearing

    I've been accused of "falsifying records". My workplace have been trying to find ways of improving overall performance, I'm guessing the best way they found was to get rid of me , but seriously they have brought in a trainer to show us new ways of doing things. One of these ways was to complete the system work on time so as not to incur a failure and capture the actual information on paper, then add notes to the system to show the details are logged on paper.

    So I did as I was shown, then I was requested to attend an informal hearing where I was informed what I had done could be deemed as fraud and I was to explain my actions. After explaining that I was doing what I was shown, so as to improve performance, I was invited to an investigation interview where I again said I was only doing as I was told.

    Now is where it has gotten interesting. I've now been invited to a disciplinary hearing to "consider the allegation of falsifying records".

    I believe I am to be provided with all evidence gained from the investigation at the time of being presented with the invite. The only evidence I was given was the "investigation interview" minutes. Now surely as I had said in that interview I had been shown, they should have atleast spoken to the trainer?, which would suggest to me that the interview was irrelevant as a decision was made prior to the interview as to what the outcome would be, so it would surely be victimisation?

    Also as they have accused me of "falsifying records", surely this should be deemed as gross misconduct and I should have been suspended whilst the investigation was being done?

    If, after the hearing, they decide to formally warn me, or even sack me for gross misconduct, what would be the best way to appeal the decision?

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.


  2. #2
    Basic Account Holder greendollar Novitiate

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    Default Re: Invited to a disciplinary hearing

    Hi Adelburn ,

    So you were recently trained to do this to improve your performance and then investigated for " falsifying records " ?

    The letter inviting you to the disciplinary should state the possible outcomes , written warning / dismissalicon for gross misconduct etc .
    The seriousness if the allegations suggest that you should have been suspended as a Tribunal will want to know why you were allowed to continue working if the company suspected you of fraud .
    I would also take a witness and ask that the trainer attend as a witness .

    All you can say at the disciplinary is that you thought you were doing no wrong and at worst you misunderstood what was required of you ......hardly a sackable offence in my opinion .

    Good Luck


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Invited to a disciplinary hearing

    Hello there and sorry to hear about your problems. Do you have a copy of the company's disciplinary procedures? They should have them and it would be in your interests to make sure they follow them. If they don't, it will go against them at an ET.

    HB

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  4. #4
    Basic Account Holder adelburn Novitiate

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    Default Re: Invited to a disciplinary hearing

    Quote Originally Posted by greendollar View Post
    So you were recently trained to do this to improve your performance and then investigated for " falsifying records " ?
    Correct. The only problem I can see is if they denied showing me this as they very rarely have us sign training documents. I know it sounds daft, but if the trainer were to lie, am I entitled to request a lie detector test?

    Quote Originally Posted by greendollar View Post
    The letter inviting you to the disciplinary should state the possible outcomes , written warning / dismissalicon for gross misconduct etc .
    The seriousness if the allegations suggest that you should have been suspended as a Tribunal will want to know why you were allowed to continue working if the company suspected you of fraud .
    I would also take a witness and ask that the trainer attend as a witness .
    In the company discpinary procedures it states "If an employee is accused of gross misconduct, the line manager should suspend him/her for the shortest practicable time on full pay to allow an unrestricted investigation".

    In the "Invite to disciplinary hearing" letter it only states the purpose of the meeting is to "consider the allegation of falsifying records". I kind of jumped to the conclusion they were accusing me of gross misconduct as in the company disciplinary procedures it states examples of gross misconduct are "unauthorised entry to computer records or deliberate falsification of records"

    Quote Originally Posted by honeybee13 View Post
    Hello there and sorry to hear about your problems. Do you have a copy of the company's disciplinary procedures? They should have them and it would be in your interests to make sure they follow them. If they don't, it will go against them at an ET.

    HB
    Cheers for that advice. First time around I just browsed through them, but I've now read them in full I've already noticed a few things they've done wrong.


  5. #5
    Basic Account Holder greendollar Novitiate

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    Default Re: Invited to a disciplinary hearing

    Hi again adelburn ,

    If they are denying that they ever showed you that method of working then its important that you demand that the trainer is at the disciplinary , that is your right (if the trainers going to lie he/she will have to do it to your face and at least you'll know where you stand) .
    You also need to clarify if it is actually a disciplinary or they are just investigating the offence at this time .
    I don't think that they can do both at the same time .
    The disciplinary letter should also have the allegation , evidence they wish to use , the possible outcome and also inform you of the right to have a witness present .( if it doesn't state your entitled to a witness don't take one or demand one)
    Don't let them know where they're going wrong , any slip ups they make can be used in any appeal if the worst happens and they dismiss you as they won't want the cost of a Tribunal should you want to take it further .

    I'm not an expert but have been going down the tribunal route since my dismissalicon and have picked up quite a bit of information on what employers should and shouldn't be doing .

    Have you employed by them for 12 months or more ?

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  6. #6
    Basic Account Holder adelburn Novitiate

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    Default Re: Invited to a disciplinary hearing

    Quote Originally Posted by greendollar View Post
    Hi again adelburn ,

    If they are denying that they ever showed you that method of working then its important that you demand that the trainer is at the disciplinary , that is your right (if the trainers going to lie he/she will have to do it to your face and at least you'll know where you stand) .
    They've not denied it yet, I was just wondering what I could do if they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by greendollar View Post
    You also need to clarify if it is actually a disciplinary or they are just investigating the offence at this time .
    I don't think that they can do both at the same time .
    This is the actual disciplinary hearing. The only investigation done was just an interview with myself for me to provide my view of the events.

    Quote Originally Posted by greendollar View Post
    The disciplinary letter should also have the allegation , evidence they wish to use , the possible outcome and also inform you of the right to have a witness present .( if it doesn't state your entitled to a witness don't take one or demand one)
    They've done all of this. The letter stated I was being accused of "falsifying records", the evidence was just a copy of the investigation minutes. The possible outcomes are detailed in the company procedures they provided me. They also provided me with a right to be accompanied form.

    Quote Originally Posted by greendollar View Post
    Don't let them know where they're going wrong , any slip ups they make can be used in any appeal if the worst happens and they dismiss you as they won't want the cost of a Tribunal should you want to take it further .

    I'm not an expert but have been going down the tribunal route since my dismissalicon and have picked up quite a bit of information on what employers should and shouldn't be doing .
    I really appreciate your help. It's definately helping to get my facts straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by greendollar View Post
    Have you employed by them for 12 months or more ?
    Almost 5 years now. The new manager however has only been with us for a month, so I'm guessing he's looking to make an example of someone, quite laughable really.


  7. #7
    Basic Account Holder cirian75 Novitiate cirian75's Avatar

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    Default Re: Invited to a disciplinary hearing

    Quote Originally Posted by adelburn View Post
    Almost 5 years now. The new manager however has only been with us for a month, so I'm guessing he's looking to make an example of someone, quite laughable really.
    Very common I'm afraid with new managers.

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  8. #8
    Basic Account Holder greendollar Novitiate

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    Default Re: Invited to a disciplinary hearing

    Morning adelburn ,

    It seems as if they've covered all their bases then . Like I've said , ensure that the trainer attends as a witness and take your own . Are you the only one that has been trained in this method ? If not ask colleagues to either attend or write statements to back up what your saying .

    I'd point out that it was their training at fault for this indescretion and no malice was intended .
    dismissalicon should be the last resort .
    I don't want to sound dramatic but this could quite easily cost you your job .
    The same happened to me , new manager didn't command the "respect" he thought he deserved (he was crap) and as a result I was singled out and dismissed on a charge that was usually dealt with by way of a quiet word .

    Again Good Luck


  9. #9
    Basic Account Holder adelburn Novitiate

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    Default Re: Invited to a disciplinary hearing

    I've had my hearing and got a first written warning

    Could someone check over my appeal message below and advise if anything should be removed, or worded better please?

    "Firstly apologies if you are not the correct person I should submit my appeal to, however it is the 6th day since my disciplinary hearing and I have been given no information or outcome of disciplinary hearing letter. I believe this is due to the fact I stated in the hearing I would like to be handed the documents as at that time I was changing my address details with HR. Due to the way the disciplinary has been handled it wouldn’t surprise me if the documents were sent to my old address so I wouldn’t be able to appeal during the 7 working day window.

    I am appealing what I believe to be the first written warning I was given on the grounds of victimisation.

    I was accused of “Falsifying records”. During the investigation interview I specifically stated I was trained to do the thing I was accused of and not only that, but everyone was doing not only this but further actions that could be deemed as “falsifying records”. My trainer, or any of my colleagues were not investigated during the interview and with the only evidence gained was the investigation meeting with myself. At no stage since then have my colleagues been spoken to about their own falsification of records.

    The company disciplinary procedures also state “If an employee is accused of gross misconduct, … the Line Manager should suspend him/her for the shortest practicable time on full pay to allow an unrestricted investigation.” As I was not suspended and taking into account the points above, I can only surmise the outcome of the investigation meeting, and even the disciplinary hearing, was pre-ordained."


  10. #10
    Basic Account Holder greendollar Novitiate

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    Default Re: Invited to a disciplinary hearing

    Quote Originally Posted by adelburn View Post
    I've had my hearing and got a first written warning

    Could someone check over my appeal message below and advise if anything should be removed, or worded better please?

    "Firstly apologies if you are not the correct person I should submit my appeal to, however it is the 6th day since my disciplinary hearing and I have been given no information or outcome of disciplinary hearing letter. I believe this is due to the fact I stated in the hearing I would like to be handed the documents as at that time I was changing my address details with HR. Due to the way the disciplinary has been handled it wouldn’t surprise me if the documents were sent to my old address so I wouldn’t be able to appeal during the 7 working day window.

    I am appealing what I believe to be the first written warning I was given on the grounds of victimisation.

    I was accused of “Falsifying records”. During the investigation interview I specifically stated I was trained to do the thing I was accused of and not only that, but everyone was doing not only this but further actions that could be deemed as “falsifying records”. My trainer, or any of my colleagues were not investigated during the interview and with the only evidence gained was the investigation meeting with myself. At no stage since then have my colleagues been spoken to about their own falsification of records.

    The company disciplinary procedures also state “If an employee is accused of gross misconduct, … the Line Manager should suspend him/her for the shortest practicable time on full pay to allow an unrestricted investigation.” As I was not suspended and taking into account the points above, I can only surmise the outcome of the investigation meeting, and even the disciplinary hearing, was pre-ordained."
    Hi,

    Sorry to hear you've got a written warning but it could have been worse .

    I'm glad to see that your appealing the decision though .
    It would be worth adding that they have a duty to treat ALL employees in a fair and consistant manner and that you are confused as to why it is only you that has been singled out for disciplinary action .
    I'd be asking why .

    Good Luck


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Invited to a disciplinary hearing

    I would be asking why too. Is there anything that singles you out for this treatment that you have not yet posted?


  12. #12
    Basic Account Holder adelburn Novitiate

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    Default Re: Invited to a disciplinary hearing

    Quote Originally Posted by papasmurf1cx View Post
    I would be asking why too. Is there anything that singles you out for this treatment that you have not yet posted?
    Nothing legit that I can think of tbh. I know the new manager has disliked me ever since he started, which I believe to be because he thinks I haven't offered him enough support whilst he settles in.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Invited to a disciplinary hearing

    Sounds like he has picked you as his target.



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