Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)

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  1. #1
    Banned ANDYANDFLO ANDYANDFLO ANDYANDFLO ANDYANDFLO ANDYANDFLO ANDYANDFLO ANDYANDFLO ANDYANDFLO ANDYANDFLO ANDYANDFLO ANDYANDFLO

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    Default How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    I have posted this on another thread and thought that a new threadicon might give some interesting opinions.

    Yes we are all in agreement that the ATOS assessment is a complete waste of everybodies time and effort and we are all seemingly blaming them for our failing. Is there not another side to the coin, one which came to light this week following a rather 'heated' friendly debate with one of my neighbours. At the end of the conversation I must admit in some way, being convinced by him!!

    When we complete the ESA50 how much info did you put on it (was it comprehensive?) - did you have help in filling the form out (CAB, Welfare Office etc?) and did you enclose medical evidence to prove your illness? I know I didn't - I just believed that the DWP would seek all of the evidence, and that the 'medical' would bring to light all of my inabilities. There was then no real need to spend hours and hours completing the damn form. I believed that justice would be done and seen to be done

    My neighbour who is a DM at DWP, said that he and his staff always treat the ATOS medical reports with distrust. He in no uncertain terms said that if the ESA50 is not filled out comprehensively (ideally with the help of CAB etc) and that there is no evidence from the claimant (even a letter of support from the GP would suffice) attached to it, then his hands are tied and he must accept the ATOS report as the primary evidence!

    A lot more was discussed as you can imagine, but he kept on stating that if the claimant does not help him/herself in the first place what more can he do.
    AND that is the main reason why appeals are in the main sucessfull at the Tribunal stage. It is only then that the claimant gets off his/her backside and looks for help from some professional organisation and produces the evidence.

    Bottom line he states that it is not the system of the DWP that is failing (although he admitted that staffing levels etc did not help) - they know and are acutely aware of the way ATOS complete the assessments, it is because the claimants fail to put forward a compelling enough argument to the DWP in order that the DM can give the right result first time round. "If the claimant put in as much effort as they do at the Tribunal stage to produce the contradictory evidence at the ESA50 stage, then there would be 50% more cases being decided by the DM in favour of the claimant"

    As I said, I am guilty of this and maybe - yes if I had put as much effort into supporting my claim at the outset, I would not be facing the Tribunal.

    Is there any merit in this unofficial 'statement' from the DWP?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    From what I hve seen of various claims going to tribunal (not just ESA) yes.

    If the information to support your case is not there, they have to make a decision on the information that is available. When a claim is made the onus is on the person claiming to show that they are eligible. The burden of proof at the claim stage is on the claimant. [R(S)/13/54 & R(S)13/52] the burden of proof at the reconsideration stage is on the Decision Maker [R(S)/3/90] - though it's not really hard to proof that the claimant isn't entitled because at this stage, nost claimants (I say most, certainly not all) still haven't submitted enough evidence for the Decision Maker to consider so the only evidence available is the evidence gathered in the original claim.

    I've helped many people with their appeal and when I get copies of the submissions, I have to admit it's not surprising in many of the cases that they were turned down because the supporting evidence is just not there.

    Though I disagree that it is all down to the claimant. It's clear to me that there is something fundamentally wrong with the ATOS assessing, and this is what really needs to be addressed. They are failing genuine cases when they shouldn't be.

    My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    Hi Andyandflo. Someone on the forum, I think I remember but I won't embarrass myself by saying who, in case I'm wrong, said they thought the ESA50 was very important in their case and wished they'd spent more time on it.

    HB x

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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    hello,andyandflo.
    when i completed my (esa50),and sent it of i actually
    "photo copied" it so basically i had a record of what i said at the time.,so that i could "Refer" back to.(not many people tend to do this,for what ever reason)
    ALL your doctors/gps details you have to put on the form ,so in my opinion if their was" anything ELSE".................... .....................,
    the atos person needed to know about your situation/circumstanced ,he or she "could/should" HAVE.

    I sent my esa 50 form on the 4th of january,and had my medical on the 5th of febuary(plenty of time to read/look at..?),if they even do.........,,,.

    according to "medical report" (walking/ standing/sitting/kneeling and
    bending) "NONE" of the above apply.? personally i think they just
    "Disregard" your esa 50 form ,and when you finally have "medical"(joke)
    and get your "NIL" POINTS, a lot people who are ill and sick have not got
    the energy/strenght to appeal the whole sorry "SAGA"


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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    Quote Originally Posted by happyhamr View Post
    "medical"(joke)
    and get your "NIL" POINTS, a lot people who are ill and sick have not got
    the energy/strenght to appeal the whole sorry "SAGA"
    Precisely - many people just do not have the physical energy to pursue it, and those suffering mental illness often cannot cope with an appeal and all the legal jargon that, at times, accompanies it.

    This is where there is a serious flaw in the system in addition to the ATOS assessments which do not recognise genuine incapacities. We have people dying from their incapacities in the midst of their appeals - surely that tells us something!

    My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

    Please do not seek, offer or produce advice on a consumer issue via private message; it is against forum rules to advise via private message, therefore pm's requesting private advice will not receive a response.
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    Hi, I didn't fill in my ESA50 with much info. I was still waiting for a diagnosis from my surgeon and so I had no real proof that I was ill.
    I was having treatment like physio therapy and regular doctors appointments and was signed off by my G.P.
    I had filled in my specialists and G.Ps name and address I did assume that they would be asked.
    I was totally unprepared for the outcome of my medical. The doctor had been lovely and I came out feeling very sure that I had passed. It was not until I failed that I searched the Internet and realised what I had been up against.
    I had luckily not had any dealings much with benefits before but I had heard about I.B and thought that with my illness and symptoms then I wouldn't have any trouble, boy was I wrong.
    By the time of my reconsideration though I did send in doctors letters and a diagnosis but the decision wasn't changed, I used the same proof at my tribunal and won. There seems to be no hard and fast rules.
    I firmly believe though that I did not help my cause by not filling in my ESA50 with as much detail as I should have. Like I have said before, the ESA50 was referred to right the way through my tribunal and I was made to explain my answers which were vague, when the form said 'how far can you walk' I wrote 'not very far' and I was asked to explain this at the tribunal and tell them exactly how far I can walk with out needing to stop.

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  7. #7
    Basic Account Holder twinkletoes66 Novitiate

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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    I didnt put too much effort in the form as I thought the whole outcome depended on the assessment. I though the form was just to let them know what was wrong with you before you went for the assessment, and they would check with your docs/specialists to make sure you were telling the truth. Really I thought giving them the basics was enough I wish Id known...
    And I wish Id done what happyhamr did and did a photo copy of my form, I asked the DWP for a copy and theyre refusing to send it unless it goes to tribunal.
    My tests are not all done either and I have to go back to physio so she can start work on more of my joints, and shes referring me to a foot specialist as something is up with the soles of my feet due to arthritis. I just gave them the definite diagnoses rather than additional symptoms, I didnt tell them about my feet on the form as I didnt have a clue what was wrong and thought it sounded silly to say the soles of my feet hurt.
    Its awkward when youre in the middle of tests or still have more to go.


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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    If you appeal they will send you a copy of your ESA50. The whole process is so awful. I could not sleep for weeks before my tribunal hearing and they made me wait for 7 months from the reconsideration till the tribunal. I even actually cried when I was told that they would not reconsider my result.
    I recently got an invite to attend ATOS again and thought that the whole process was starting again and I felt sick, it is actually to talk about my work prospects but I was shocked at how the letter effected me.
    I consider myself a strong person but this really gets to you, I think its because its just so unfair and I felt like I was talking to robots.
    It doesn't take long to realise that nothing you say to the DWP makes any difference.
    Good luck and I will help if I can.


  9. #9
    Basic Account Holder twinkletoes66 Novitiate

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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    Thanks cbbc, and try not to worry (I know its easy to say where the DWP and Atos are concerned) this next Atos thing you go for from what I hear is nothing like the assessment. Youre over the worst
    I know what you mean about feeling sick when you get letters from them and feeling like youre talking to robots, its like theyre trained for it it seems impossible to get through to any of them, I thought it was just me. It really does get you down I very nearly gave up last week I felt so alone.


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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    hi twinkletoes,
    Giving up is what they are counting on.
    I even felt awkward for asking my doctor for notes. You begin to feel as if every one is judging you. I even thought about just signing on to avoid the stress but I am truthfully not up to it so why shouldnt I get some help.
    ESA is for people who are ill and need help finding the right type of job, the perfect benefit for us so why make it so bloody difficult to get. It makes no sense.

    Please see it out, you never know you may win.

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    Quote Originally Posted by twinkletoes66 View Post
    It really does get you down I very nearly gave up last week I felt so alone.

    Hey, hey, hey! We'll not be having that talk on here

    Don't give up, twinkletoes. When you are finding it getting to you, pop online and talk to us. You're not alone, there are lots of people on here who have been through and some still going through the same thing, who understand.

    My advice is based on my opinion, my experience and my education. I do not profess to be an expert in any given field. If requested, I will provide a link where possible to relevant legislation or guidance, so that advice provided can be confirmed and I do encourage others to follow those links for their own peace of mind. Sometimes my advice is not what people necesserily want to hear, but I will advise on facts as I know them - although it may not be what a person wants to hear it helps to know where you stand. Advice on the internet should never be a substitute for advice from your own legal professional with full knowledge of your individual case.

    Please do not seek, offer or produce advice on a consumer issue via private message; it is against forum rules to advise via private message, therefore pm's requesting private advice will not receive a response.
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    If my advice has been helpful, please show your gratitude by taking a moment to click on the star icon on the bottom strip of my post






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  12. #12
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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    Thankyou for the dedicated thread, Andyandflo. As I said elsewhere, a very interesting and worthwhile post.
    I filled out my first ESA50 in ignorance. Like everyone else I naturally assumed my GP would be contacted. After all, the form asks for my GP details and it's just natural to assume, right? [Something you need to point out to your neighbour if you haven't already done so!]
    When everything went pear-shaped and I had to go to tribunal, I was disappointed to note that, in the DWP bumpf, they quite clearly state a GP cannot be trusted. I'd be interested to know your neighbours view on that one... [Quite happy to dig out the relevant section if required].
    Sometimes you have to ask: where the heck do we stand?
    Best wishes
    Rae


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    Basic Account Holder twinkletoes66 Novitiate

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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelcou View Post
    Thankyou for the dedicated thread, Andyandflo. in the DWP bumpf, they quite clearly state a GP cannot be trusted.
    Rae


    That is shocking! Im going to go nuts if I read anything like that after the way my GP has tried to help me! He kept ringing the Rheumy Dept chasing my first appointment up, he got me in one day at the end of his shift and had me there for 40 mins and rang a rhuemy while I was there to ask for advice on the best sort of painkillers. (I had an ulcer so anti-inflammatories are a bit dodgy, codeine spaced me out, tramadol made me ill) How dare they are they allowed to say stuff like that?! Doctors cant be trusted but their own so called HCPs can???

    Thanks for the support. I failed the assessment the last time after the doctor lied in his report, and I swore this time they wouldnt get away with it again so Im going to fight the good fight, the more of us who do the better.

    Regarding the DM and the ESA form, from the stuff Ive been reading on the net everyone is called in for assessment apart from those who are exempt - and the CAB are kicking off because even those who are exempt are being summoned. Theres a guide somewhere with a list of conditions that are exempt and not many conditions are on the list.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    When I applied for DLA, I admit I made myself appear to be healthy as I find it demeaning to admit you have a problem and of course the application was rejected. I then used DIAL who told me exactly why it was rejected and then did an application more true to my problems. I was accepted for DLA. I would definitley use them for any ESA50 form, but luckily I am going onto Pension credit so hopefully no hassles with ATOS now or in the future.


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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    I'd like to add that anybody with a mental health condition really should think about having their forms filled in for them by a 3rd party. Preferably with help from a specialist disability organisation or welfare rights.

    Whilst the DLA forms have a quite a lot of scope and opportunity for you to explain things the ESA forms are just to subjective and narrow to get a full picture.

    Often the condition due to it's nature has a massive effect on how they view themselves and the issues they face. This has a knock on effect on how they answer the questions and fill in the forms. The DWP take this view too.

    This is why getting everything checked by a 3rd person with knowledge of you and/or the benefits system and having supporting evidence from doctors & councillors is vital in the application.

    It all adds weight to the application in your favour and gives a very good base to expand upon if needed for an appeal.

    Just read Surfers post and it's spot on. Got my forms filled in by welfare rights for both DLA and ESA last week. I had all the guides and have researched everything in detail. Every question I ignored on the ESA forms (I thought did not apply to me) was where I scored points whilst the ones I had perfect answers for we threw away.


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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    I too filled in my ESA50 un-aided, and I also now realise this was a big mistake, I had no real problem with the physical questions, it was the mental health ones I had trouble with, and, though one or two were ok, some I just could not answer, insted I wrote a detailed discription of my condition, and circumstances in the 'other Information' section of the form, I did also photo-copy it before sending it off, so glad i did.
    As you say the Mental conditions are the hardest to discribe, I am always pushing these to one side, and after a while you get so good at it, you begin to belive there is nothing wrong.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    This is great advice, I think it's where I failed last time around.

    ESA appeal (Depression & Anxiety) won June 2011



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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    I filled my form out on my own. I didn't just tick the boxes I said how I was effected. I sent not proof other than a list of my medication. I also listed my problems. I was transfered from IB to ESA. I've been told I don't have to do anything for 2 years when I'll be assessed again.

    I also filled out my wifes and my DLA forms and we both had indefinite awards (until they get rid of it I guess).

    But then they can't question cronic heart disease can they?


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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    I checked with my gp this week and they've yet to be contacted by ATOS and I'm still waiting for an assessment appointment date more than 7 weeks after sending back my ESA50 . Have been on assessment rate since 22nd June!

    Feebee_71


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    Default Re: How important is the ESA50 & supporting evidence?

    I have forwarded to them copy letters from 5 of my consultants as many others I do not or very rarely contact my gp as hospital consultants are my primary careers. Where I have 6 volumes of notes - my life is so far from normal for a 40 something person every area of my body suffers due to my illness in fact consultant neurological review class me and have documented me as disabled - my osteopath commented the other day that I could do with a new body to which I agree and I am classed as having many morbidities. The lengthy form we have to fill in makes me feel worse about myself having taken years to come to terms of acknowledging and coming to terms that I am disabled these repeated question knock me back considerably - so given I have received a second form to fill in a year ahead of time do you think I am being listed for atos review - all this makes me mentally physically and emotionally exhausted spending many hours crying how do they not realize that it has a detrimental effect on our health

    have posted this in esa protest thread however feel that maybe this is where my post should be ???

    I on this occasion have not copied form I sent however did send it recorded delivery reason for not coping it was I had no money. I still don't understand why I have recieved this copy form? When I filled this one in I didn't stress my SOB as it was already deltailed in last form but did state that I still suffered this problem and in one of consulants letters it did state my SOB was no worse than normal ? I also fill the form in trying not to believe that all these things are wrong with me

    I so much rely on my DLA and am worried so much there is not one minute of one day since I received the form I haven't stressed about it ! I have a rheumatology review tomorrow and given my increasing problems with mobility I am so glad that I have the review now - Should I continue to send supporting evidence even after form has been returned - I have not phoned them since I received the form like others I just subservently filled it in by myself ? I would be in a terrible position if I lost my DLA as my car is provided by this scheme and would have no way of getting anywhere without it ! I wouldn't even be able to get my children to school - although my husband (my career) would take them there is no way we could afford a bus pass and his whole day would be taken up by getting them there and back leaving me alone ? The school is possibly 4 miles away but bus route is a long one ! Should I phone them ? I am not even sure that the form I filled in was one of the above because the form numbers do not match.

    Where do I go from here ? I would like to express the feel I am going through but the only word I have to describe it is depressed but I feel this is not the right word oh I am so worried. If DLA review is not in my favour what happens to benefits whilst in the appeals procedure ?




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