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In January my vehicle was involved in a collision with a Mercedes in which both our driver side wing mirrors were damaged. I was able to fix mine for £25 and decided not to claim as it wasn't worth it. However the 3rd party has put in a claim against me.

 

Up until recently my insurer has said they agree I was in the right and in their view I was not liable. Today I've received a letter from them saying they don't think they can defend it and they'll now be looking to settle it in the best possible terms. Which really means I can kiss my NCB good bye.

 

The thing is, the 3rd party is lying about which part of the road the collision happened on. They are claiming it happened further down the road beside a parked car and therefore I was on there side of the road and am negligent. however it actually took place further up the road beside a sign that stated the 3rd party should have given way to oncoming traffic, ie me.

 

Can I force my insurer to defend the claim or at least appeal their decision. I have already told them I am willing to stand in front of a judge if necessary. I'd even take the 3rd party to court without my insurer if needed. I don't want my NCB being screwed by a lying 3rd party.

 

I have photos from the scene. I even have a photo showing the parked car and there is clearly no debris in the road. unfortunately the one thing I didn't take a photo of was the debris lying in the road where the collision happened.

 

Help!

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Hi there, sorry to hear about your problem. Hopefully some of our gurus will be along later.

 

You did well taking photos, I don't think I'd remember. Did you have any witnesses? I don't suppose the police were called?

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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hiya, no witnesses stopped. He had several family members in the car, I was on my own in my car. The police weren't called. I think they only usually come out if someone was hurt.

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Difficult position for you and the Insurers. If the 3rd party is mistaken over their account, even if you took this to court, the 3rd party would not be shown to be telling untruths, unless there was evidence of this. e.g. independent witness, photographs.

 

This will be put down as a 50/50, if you argue it. So it will affect the no claims discount of both drivers. The outcome then could be that both drivers take this out of the hands of their respective Insurers and pay for their own damage. If there are no claims under either policy, then both will not have fault claims affecting bonus, but just an incident affecting the premium a little.

 

What you could do is threaten to take this to court. If you have legal expenses cover, talk to the people that provide this. If not, write a recorded delivery letter to the 3rd party Insurers and copy in your own Insurers. If you write to them advising that the place the accident took place, is not as advised by their policyholder, but further down the road etc, with a photo of the road position of the accident. That you will take this to court if necessary etc. I would expect the 3rd parties Insurers to agree to a 50/50.

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As the other car had people in it other than the driver, you can bet your bottom dollar that they will all give evidence to support the TP's version of events. Even though they are not indpendent, they will still influence the decision of a Court if the claim is brought before a Judge. This is probably why your insurers are just paying out.

 

In any event, even without any witnesses, the wise old womble above is correct in that at best, it is likely you would have a 50/50 apportionment of liability and so your NCB would be affected.

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the thing is, I had to pick up the colour coded mirror cover from my car, the mirror glass which broke all of the road and there was bits of the plastic surround that broke off too. I have a photo of the location where the 3rd party claim the collision took place and the road is clear of debris so I can show that it didn't happen there. unfortunately I just can't show that it did happen further up the road. The photo was taken at the time of the incident with the 3rd party standing behind me writing down his details.

 

A 50/50 claim is something I would hope to avoid however if he is going to take down my NCB then hey ho I'll take his down with me. I've tried to do the decent thing and sort my own car despite imo not being liable for the incident and as a thanks I'm getting screwed over by a liar. grrrr.

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if my insurance company won't defent the claim, can I take court action myself to establish liability?

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The problem you will have is indemnity. Your insurers have the right to deal with your claim as they see fit as long as the course of action is reasonable. If you object to the way they wish to proceed to settle your claim they may turn round and confirm that they will not indemnify you if you lose and therefore you will have to pay the amounts awarded by the Court.

 

Another problem you will face is if the matter is above a certain value then it will be listed in the fast track and costs will be awarded against you if you lose. Your insurers may not cover you in this respect either.

 

The final problem you will have is that it is likely that you will be up against lawyers who do this thing day in day out and will run rings around you.

 

From what you have said then I doubt very much you will succeed in Court.

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ok so if I work on the basis that this will be a 50:50 claim. The 3rd party is claiming £850 for repairs to his car. If it goes 50:50 my insurance company will pay £425. Will they then ask me for my excess (I haven't been asked for it yet as I didn't make a claim I just informed them of the incident, I fixed my own car for £25).

 

If they will then it'll cost me £200 so I might as well spend the extra £225 to cover the whole amount my insurance would be out of pocket. In this circumstance would I get to keep my NCB because my insurance hasn't had to pay anything out technically? (ie it's like my paying for half of his repairs)

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It isn't usual for a policyholder to pay the excess for third party damage, normally your excess is only deducted from a claim made by you for damage to your own vehicle (or from a fire/theft claim).

 

It's very rare these days to find an 'all section excess' policy (under one of these policies the excess is deducted regardless of who claims).

 

And yes, if you refund any and all monies paid by your insurers then you haven't made a claim so your NCD would be intact.

 

Mossy

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As Mossy says, I would be very surprised if you had to pay your xs, certainly not standard procedure for repairs to the 3rd party vehicle.

 

Sounds to me like 50/50 is not established as yet, which means other drivers lies might be getting him off scot free.

 

Anyone think a NBA to the other driver might make him remember a bit clearer? Not much to lose as I see it.

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Anyone think a NBA to the other driver might make him remember a bit clearer? Not much to lose as I see it.

 

That could be a clever tactic, I'd certainly be tempted to try it.

 

If the OP gets a 100% recovery of their outlay from the TP it would certainly negate the claim against them/their insurers, it's whether of not the TP could be bluffed into admitting the truth.

 

It's certainly worth the shot though

 

Mossy

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What's a NBA please guys? :confused: HB

 

Its a Notice Before Action (otherwise known as LBA Letter Before Action), ie a strongly worded letter stating what will happen if they don't pay up, when I do them I usually a copy of the particulars of claim so they know I'm serious and will have no hesitation in issuing if they don't pay up.

 

Mossy

Edited by Mossycat
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it may be a possibility. I have sent a 2 page letter back to my insurers with the photosgraphs printed onto A4 and I've made comments on them explaining why the collision couldn't have happened where the 3rd party claims it did. I hope to be able to persuade them that it will be worthwhile pursuing this if they just put a bit of thought into it. I have also asked them to send me a copy of the docs they have received from the 3rd party insurer so I can see what the 3rd party is claiming exactly and to see if there is statements from the passengers or not. fingers crossed, by far me preference would be for my insurers to see the light and assign solicitors to this because as far as I am concerned the only evidence the 3rd party has is his witness statements from his passengers (friends/family). There was no physical evidence to support his story because his version didn't actually happen. I'm wondering if its even worthwhile saying to them that I don't believe 2 cars could have fitted through the gap in the road without them colliding head on and leaving it to them to prove otherwise.

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Here's a couple of the photos, this one was taken from behind the 3rd party's car. He's claiming it happened beside that VW. Despite my colour-coded mirror cover coming off and the mirror glass coming out and smashing, you can see there is nothing in the road beside that car. It actually happened where the blue Vectra is. My vehicle is the black vectra in the distance.

 

1.jpg

 

Here's from my view, as you can see he is parked very close to the VW, I don't believe at 20 or 30 especially in icy conditions, he would have stopped that quick given that the Highway Code stated typical stopping distances as 3 car lengths at 20 and 6 car lengths at 30 not even taking into consideration the icy conditions.

 

2.jpg

Edited by knoxvillain

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Insurers are very unwilling to go to Court in cases like this because they know the (highly) likely outcome, (50/50 as per Endymions post), so a Court battle would only cost more money but produce the same result.

 

Photographs after the event would not hold that much weight, glass could have been put down/swept up etc, however photographs taken at the scene/time of the accident are ideal, especially if taken from an angle that can identify where on a particular road the accident took place.

 

(Your photographs are not showing BTW)

 

If you can get the file (copy of) from your insurers and at the same time keep them in the loop advise them that you are intending to issue proceedings for the recovery of your outlay direct from the TP then you may spot some inconsistencies in what the TP (and witnesses) say.

 

Another point worth considering is that your outlay is NOT that much, so a carefully worded LBA might just make the TP realise that paying you £25 and dropping his claim is better than getting done for perjury.

 

Mossy

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I would think they would have a hard time convincing the court that I swept the glass considering the photo was taken with the 3rd party present and is not only time & date stamped but also has GPS location info embedded in it. Also, I believe one of the passengers took a photo of the parked car too and their photo too will show no debris.

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I would think they would have a hard time convincing the court that I swept the glass considering the photo was taken with the 3rd party present and is not only time & date stamped but also has GPS location info embedded in it. Also, I believe one of the passengers took a photo of the parked car too and their photo too will show no debris.

 

Your photo's are not visible so I didn't know if they were taken at the scene/time or post scene/time.

 

(Time and date stamp is irrelevent since this can be set to show anything desired), but a pinpoint GPS location is good.

 

They have the potential to add some serious weight to your LBA.

 

Mossy

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A letter of claim to the TP is usually a good idea as is issuing first, but I hardly think they will be quaking in their boots at the prospect of you going to Court over £25, especially when their outlay and counterclaim is going to be £800+.

 

The salient point you are going to have to remember is that it will be your word against three people's word. Unless the Judge thinks they are all lying (which is unlikely) then he is most likely to find for the TP or give a 50/50 settlement.

 

He has to justify his Judgment and he is going to be very hard pressed to justify finding for you when he has three people saying that you were at fault. I understand that they are not independent but they will still be allowed to give evidence and their evidence will be taken into account.

 

It would be good to see the pics you took as they might (but probably wont) help you defend the matter and help us to see if they will help you or not.

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yup, I'll post them up later once I get home from work and can upload them to a different location. My take on it is that although the photos on their own may not be the smoking gun, if I could at least get my insurance company to provide a solicitor then I am convinced a half-decent solicitor would be able to discredit their statements and make it on the balance of probabilities that it didn't happen how they claim it did.

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Good luck. I doubt your insurers will want to instruct any solicitors to defend this matter. Even if you win, which is unlikely, they will not be able to recover the solicitors costs and the costs of instructing a barrister to represent you at trial.

 

So, probably looking at around £1000 + to go to Court and even if you win, they cant get their money back.

 

It makes no sense for your insurance company to take this to Court.

 

I know it is crap but as they say, the law's an ass....

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photos updated, apologies for the size

 

Just to clarify, I'm not looking to claim £25, I'm looking to have a judge decide liability or to have 3rd party drop his dishonest claim.

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