Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

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  1. #1
    Basic Account Holder MadAboutIT Novitiate MadAboutIT's Avatar



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    Default RBS CCA - is this correct?

    Hi All

    I sent the following letter to RBSicon without sending a Postal Order for £1. The below links are the response I recieved today.

    Date: 16th March 2010


    Dear Sir or Madam


    Account number - xxxxxxxxx
    Sort Code – xxxxxxxx



    After recently obtaining a copy of my credit file from Experian I was concerned to note that your company has placed a "Default" notice against the above account.


    Further to this I have no recollection of ever receiving such a notice, and I therefore require you to substantiate this data at your earliest convenience.


    1. You must supply me with a true copy of the alleged agreement you refer to. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) consumer crediticon Act 1974 (s.77 (1) for fixed sum credit). Your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account.


    2. You must supply me with a signed true and certified copy of the original default notice


    3. Any deed of assignment if the debt was sold on


    I would request that this data is provided to myself within the next 28 days, if you are unable to provide this data then I must insist that it is removed from my files as unsubstantiated.


    Yours faithfully


    Now I have recieved today the following


    RBS RESPONSE


    AGREEMENT


    2nd PAGE OF T&C's


    Is the response from RBS correct? Is the Agreement ok? It looks like a templateicon, just to let you know, I have not blanked out anything under the Credit Reference No. This simply isn't any on the agreement they have sent me.

    They did send me photocopies of the Insurance Policy Terms & Conditions, and a schedule of Arrears. I can upload them too if you need to see them.

    What I am interested in is firstly the insurance, I KNOW I was advised and sold the insurance from the bank and would ONLY get the loan if I took the Insurance. I was unaware at the time that this was not a pre-requisite until I came here.
    Secondly, I wanted to get a true copy of the Default notice - which hasn't arrived. Now I am more than willing to send a Postal Order and to be honest the letter I sent them was from another site, so didn't realise when I sent it that I needed to send a Postal Order, so if I should, would it not be worth sending a SARicon - would the Default Notice arrive with that?

    Can someone advise on this please? I am currently paying FCM £35 per month and have been doing so for the last 2 years and have not missed a payment.

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  2. #2
    Royalties Account Holder cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert's Avatar



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    Default Re: RBS CCA - is this correct?

    No they are not obliged to sent you a copy of a DN, it is extremely rare for them to keep a copy. As for that CCA it looks as if it is a reconstruction as there doesn't appear to be any signatures unless you've blanked them out. Also if you signed the agreement at home it seems to be missing the 'right to cancel' which is a prescribed term & the agreement would be unenforceable if it was missing.

    If your signature is missing I'd be tempted to send them Scots letter below & see what their response is;

    Re: my request under the consumer crediticon Act 1974

    Thank you for your recent letter sent to me, the contents of which are noted. I appreciate your quick response to my original letter. However, the reply received by me does not fulfil your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

    The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter.

    My request remains outstanding. The items you sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. It neither confirms that I am liable for any alleged debt to you, nor gives me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.

    I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that you allege exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

    You had until XX/XX/2010 to provide me with the true copy I requested. You are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

    To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the customer to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

    The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office

    To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the credit reference agencies.

    Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.


    I look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully

    Print name do not sign

    **amend to suit your circumstances.**

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  3. #3
    Royalties Account Holder cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert's Avatar



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    Default Re: RBS CCA - is this correct?

    Anthrax alert at debt collectors caused by box of doughnuts

    Make sure you do not post anything which identifies you. Although we can remove certain things from the site unless it's done in a timely manner everything you post will appear in Google cache & we do not have any control over that.

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  4. #4
    Basic Account Holder MadAboutIT Novitiate MadAboutIT's Avatar



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    Default Re: RBS CCA - is this correct?

    Cerbanerusalert - thank you for the prompt reply, it is most appreciated. Can you advise if I need to add copies of the original request or a copy of the Agreement they provided with this letter, or will the letter be sufficient?

    And should they not fulfill this renewed request, would it be advisable to send a SARicon to them? If they have no copy of the DN, if they have a kleenex tissue archived with the date of the DN, are they not obliged to provide this information? My question here is geared around the possibilty of a 'non valid notice' and 'termination'

    Again, thanks very much for your help

    EDIT: Meant to add, I signed the agreement in the Bank, I haven't blanked anything out of the Agreement apart from my personal details (name, address) everything else is as I recieved it

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  5. #5
    Royalties Account Holder cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert's Avatar



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    Default Re: RBS CCA - is this correct?

    Just the letter will be fine.

    you could send a SARicon yes, if they have sent a DN in the past there should be some record of it if only a diary event.
    EDIT: Meant to add, I signed the agreement in the Bank, I haven't blanked anything out of the Agreement apart from my personal details (name, address) everything else is as I recieved it
    It doesn't require the right to cancel then as it was on premises, but it would need your signature to be enforceable.

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  6. #6
    Basic Account Holder MadAboutIT Novitiate MadAboutIT's Avatar



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    Default Re: RBS CCA - is this correct?

    Thank you very much, I have been looking over the PPIicon thread, but come to doubts for a claim for the following reasons:

    1. I know I made multiple payments agaisnt the loan, but was made redundanticon in the November of 2004. I know I made every payment until I was made redundant, the loan start date is 28th June 04, so I presume the 1st payment went out in July, so 5 payments were made. Now it is my understanding then that the PPI kicked in and made some payments, but the schedule of arrears I recieved today states:

    Balance drawn on 28 June 2004 - £3,200
    First payment of £108,73 due monthly thereafter

    Total amount paid to date is £2,882.14
    Total arrears on account amounts to £3,641.66
    Balance on the account £3,641.66-

    Then there is a list starting from February 2006 of every month through to July 2009 stating

    Missed payments to date under the original agreement are as follows:

    £108,73 in February 2006
    £108,73 in March 2006
    £108,73 in April 2006

    ...and so on right up to July 2009.

    So why only until that date? Why not up until April 2010?

    So I am not sure if I can claim the PPI and if the amount paid to date consists of PPI payments in my favour during my time unemployed. This seems to be a single premium policy. For me I am so confused to the amounts paid VSicon remaining and what is interest and what is loan or PPI

    Really have no idea

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  7. #7
    Royalties Account Holder cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert Highly authoritative cerberusalert's Avatar



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    Default Re: RBS CCA - is this correct?

    PPIicon isn't my field I'm afraid, you'd be better asking in the PPI forum Payment Protection Insurance (PPI) - The Consumer Forums

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  8. #8
    Basic Account Holder MadAboutIT Novitiate MadAboutIT's Avatar



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    Default Re: RBS CCA - is this correct?

    cerb, thanks for your response. I have drafted this letter, mostly the same but slightly tweaked, can you advise if this can be sent as is?

    Re: my request under the consumer crediticon Act 1974

    Thank you for your recent letter sent to me, dated 1st April and received on the 7th April, the contents of which are noted. I appreciate your response to my original letter. However, the reply received by me does not fulfil your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

    The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand when providing a payment of £1. Please find enclosed a Postal Order for the sum of £1 to be used for the purpose of this request and not for any payments towards this account.

    My request remains outstanding. The items you sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. It neither confirms that I am liable for any alleged debt to you, nor gives me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.

    I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that you allege exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

    Although you advise in your previous correspondence that the agreement you provided was a true copy, I believe this to be a reconstructed agreement and not a true copy. As this only arrived on the 7st April you did not provide the information in a timely fashion as per the request. You had 12+2 days to respond, I was lenient enough to allow you a further 8 days, but as the supplied documents are not a true copy you are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

    Under the same obligation you have to my request I have also not received the following as requested in my letter dated 16th March 2010 and I there for request these one more time:

    2. You must supply me with a signed true and certified copy of the original default notice

    3. Any deed of assignment if the debt was sold on

    To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the customer to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.
    The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office

    To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the documents I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the Credit Reference Agencies.

    Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.


    I look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully


    This letter contains 2 pages

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  9. #9
    Basic Account Holder MadAboutIT Novitiate MadAboutIT's Avatar



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    Default Re: RBS CCA - is this correct?

    have been searching for the following which RBSicon have mentioned in the response:

    Regulation 3 (1) of the consumer crediticon (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983

    I cannot find this, can some please point me in the right direction. Have searched here but cannot find this exact regulation

    I have used http://search.opsi.gov.uk/

    but have no luck

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  10. #10
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    Default Re: RBS CCA - is this correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadAboutIT View Post
    have been searching for the following which RBSicon have mentioned in the response:

    Regulation 3 (1) of the consumer crediticon (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983

    I cannot find this, can some please point me in the right direction. Have searched here but cannot find this exact regulation

    I have used http://search.opsi.gov.uk/

    but have no luck
    What they refer to is correct however, I would write back and ask them to confirm whether the true copy has been recreated from banking records or from the original.

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  11. #11
    Basic Account Holder MadAboutIT Novitiate MadAboutIT's Avatar



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    Default Re: RBS CCA - is this correct?

    thanks for your response, I also found this thread here that I should seriously consider now or should I send the letter in as written above in my earlier post #8?

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  12. #12
    Basic Account Holder MadAboutIT Novitiate MadAboutIT's Avatar



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    Default Re: RBS CCA - is this correct?

    Can I ask whether I should follow the advice from PT in the above linked thread. If so should I request via CPR 31.16 or CPR 31.14?

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  13. #13
    Basic Account Holder MadAboutIT Novitiate MadAboutIT's Avatar



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    Default Re: RBS CCA - is this correct?

    cerb, also in my earlier post you asked if I signed the agreement on the premises. On discussing with my wife the progress in this thread, she advised me that she DID indeed bring the agreement at the time to me at my workplace for me to sign! - What is the legislation behind your question in regards to this?

    I personally cannot validate this as I really cannot remember, but I would have no reason to doubt my wife. It may have been an agreement that she signed in the bank or sent to us in the post, neither of us can remember.

    Bit more information, the loan was to repay the overdraft. I can recall we were able to increase the OD time and time again and the bank obliged, until such a point as we were 'told' we had to take a loan as they were not increasing it any more. I believe the limit of the OD at the time was £1800. When the agreement was drawn up, we were not even advised around the PPIicon but sold the loan and policy in such a way to the effect...

    ....you are paying back in a loan much less than the charges for the OD and the bank do not want to manage your account when it is constantly over drawn...

    They pitched it in a way that it was 'necessary' to take the loan.

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  14. #14
    Basic Account Holder MadAboutIT Novitiate MadAboutIT's Avatar



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    Default Re: RBS CCA - is this correct?

    bump

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