Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


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  1. #1
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    Default Bank Of Scotland Cc Debt 19 Yrs Old

    I recieved a demand for the above, defaulted in 2001, from Westcott Credit recently and sent the CCA Requesticon. They passed it to Bank of Scotlandicon who today sent me what looks like my original application form dated 1991 plus a document headed "consumer crediticon Agreement". However there is an important discrepancy. While the original application form has the address I was living at when I made the application in 1991 the doc headed "Consumer Credit Agreement" has my current address. So its obviously not a copy of the original docs.

    Along with the docs is a covering letter saying that this discharges their obligation under the Consumer Credit Act and they will not enter into any further discussion as to the validity of the docs. They say they regard the original agreement as enforcable and warn me about using a "claims management company" to advise me and refer me t the recent Ministry of Justice ruling.

    They have also sent me a "statement" which looks like a normal cc statement as through they had simply reactivated the account again. The statement is asking for the full balance of 1300 or thereabouts.

    Subsequent to my default on the card in 2001 I began to pay the debt under a CCCS debt management planicon. However I packed that in about a year ago (April 2009) and decided to try the "prove the debt" route.

    This means I cant go the "statute barredicon" route although it might be worth a try.

    Thus far I have had success with 2 other DCSs who have been "unable to obtain" the required docs from the client.

    I will post all these docs on my domain webspace with links from this thread soon so someone from here can look at them and give me an informed opinion as to whether they are enforcable. I need a bit of techy help to do this from my nephew who will show me how to do it.


  2. #2
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    Default Re: Bank Of Scotland Cc Debt 19 Yrs Old

    The documents I recieved can now be accessed at the following link:-

    CAG Documents

    This opens a webpage where the docs can be accessed. I would be very grateful if someone can look at them and advise me how to proceed.

    I am aware that they would need to produce a copy of the actual signed agreement in order to enforce the agreement in court.



  3. #3
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    Default Re: Bank Of Scotland Cc Debt 19 Yrs Old

    nice application form, do the T&C's look as if they belong to the front page?

    have you ever had a default notice?

    did you at any time have PPIicon

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Bank Of Scotland Cc Debt 19 Yrs Old

    As already said it's an application which doesn't contain all the prescribed terms. The other T&Cs they have sent is a mish mash and in my opinion have no connection to that document i.e Page 3 clearly states at the bottom 4.4 meaning page four of four and then look at the side of the 4.4 the 'right to cancel has been crudely copied and pasted onto the very edge of those numbers.

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Bank Of Scotland Cc Debt 19 Yrs Old

    Thanks for your comments.

    The T&Cs do not appear to me to belong to the front page. As I said in posting 1 the bottom of doc 5 under LOSS OR MISUSE MENTIONS "internet" (which was in its infancy when i would have signed the original credit agreement in 1991) is mentioned as though it was then routinely used for personal banking.

    I believe I declined PPIicon for this credit card.

    I defaulted in 2002. I believe I may had had a default notice but cant remember that far back.

    The accompanying letter infers that this is all they have to send now in view of the Manchester ruling. However how am I to know if my original agreement contains the prescribed terms if they dont supply it?

    I assume there is now some kind of templateicon reply I should make to this.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Bank Of Scotland Cc Debt 19 Yrs Old

    Well page three you posted can't be the reverse of the signed document & that's the one that contains the prescribed terms, you could send them this;

    Dear Sir or Madam,


    Account no

    ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

    Re: my request under the consumer crediticon Act 1974


    Thank you for your letter dated ........, the contents of which are noted

    Your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is subject to a serious dispute. On ......... I requested that ........... supply me a copy of the credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78. To date ........... have failed to comply with my request. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to .............., nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

    For the avoidance of any doubt I have included section 78(1) and 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states…

    78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement
    (1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—
    (a) the state of the account, and
    (b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and
    (c) the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.
    (6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—
    (a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;


    Clearly as no agreement was supplied on request, this in no way complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I now draw your attention to section 78 subsection 6 which states If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

    Clearly this is a situation as described in S.78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the debt is unenforceable at this time. In addition, I draw your attention to section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states

    127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

    This is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.


    To clarify S.61(1) states

    (1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

    (a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and
    (b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and
    (c) The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signatureicon, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

    In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

    1.Number of repayments;
    2.Amount of repayments;
    3.Frequency and timing of repayments;
    4.Dates of repayments;
    5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

    Therefore based upon the Consumer Credit Act 1974 this debt as it stands is unenforceable and should this proceed to litigation, a court is precluded from making an enforcement order under section 127(3) unless a true copy of the signed agreement is produced..

    At the point where this account entered into the default situation as described in s78 (6) CCA 1974 no other charges are allowed to be added until such time as ............... become compliant with my request. As ................ are still not in compliance with my request I insist that the following takes place with immediate effect

    All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file
    All collection activities cease with immediate effect until ............. comply with my request from .date........... or such time as a court makes an enforcement order
    In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collectionicon

    The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

    2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

    h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

    What I Require.

    I require that you send me a true copy of the executed agreement as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

    I require that you comply with my request within 7 days of the date of this letter. I will not correspond any further with you until I either receive a copy of the requested documents as laid down in section 78(1) CCA 74 or clarification that such agreement doesn’t exist. I am advised that should you persist in pursuing this debt ignoring the above information you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well

    No other correspondence will be accepted

    Should you attempt litigation it will be vigorously defended and the failure to supply documentation under the CCA 1974 is a complete defence to any legal action and your actions will be vexatious and unlawful


    I trust this out lines the situation

    Regards

    Print name do not sign

    Edit to suit

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Bank Of Scotland Cc Debt 19 Yrs Old

    Many thanks - I will get this off to them by recorded delivery within the next few days.


  8. #8
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Bank Of Scotland Cc Debt 19 Yrs Old

    I have not as yet had a reply from RBSicon. I did have another threatogram from their minion Westcott but I sent it back marked "not accepted".

    At one time I might have worried but thanks to this forum I realise how little power these people have. It is quite probably that debts for which the docs cant be produced will simply be passed to another DCAicon but eventually they will become statute barredicon. Then I will tell them to go forth and multiply.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Bank Of Scotland Cc Debt 19 Yrs Old

    I have now CCA'd 4 DCAs and thus far no one has sent me a True Copy or anything resembling one. However the debts do date from the early 1990s to the early 2000s so they are quite aged.


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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Bank Of Scotland Cc Debt 19 Yrs Old

    Thie applies only when 6 years have gone by without you acknowledging the debt.

    The problem was that I spent years paying them through a debt management planicon. About half of the debts are now paid off. Some of them got passed from one DCAicon to another each of whom added their corrupt charges so I was making no progress with them. About a year ago I found this site and stopped paying them all together. It was about 6 months before any of them got in touch with me and I just sent back the letters marked "gone away". Two companies never got back to me.

    My nephew has a debt which he has never acknowledged and has been chased by about 6 DCAs. He just bins the letters and its over 3 years now. After a bit they just stop writing and pass it on. They dont phone because hes on a private number and only ever gives anyone his mobile. If any DCA gets hold of it he just changes the sim. They have no hold over him because hes in social housing and on disability benefit doesnt own any property so he says if they take him to court he will just offer a peppercorn amount.

    He says if he can hold them off for another 3 years the debt becomes statute barredicon.

    I wish I had done the same instead of being "responsible" and trying to pay them off.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Bank Of Scotland Cc Debt 19 Yrs Old

    There is a follow up to the above. I never heard back from Bank of Scotlandicon and decided to quietly wait for the debt to become statute barredicon in May 2014.

    More recently I heard from Lowells that they have purchased the debt from BOSicon.

    I sent them the "who are you I have never borrowed anything from you I demand proof" type letter." They returned a bunch of old credit card statements and a copy of the SAME document (the application form) which I originally received from BOS.

    I have heard via the newsletter that Lowells are getting nasty and sending quite a few people statutory demands for quite small sums. It seems they are using these as a debt collectionicon tool. However the same newsletter advised that one can apply to have a bankruptcy hearing set aside if there was a serious dispute with the original creditor and/or they have failed to satisfy a CCA Requesticon.

    I have not received a SD from Lowell. However they now seem to think they can demand payment having sent a duplicate of what BOS initially sent.

    My inclination is to send LOWELL a CCA Requesticon to themselves, also explaining that what they have supplied is not acceptable as it is merely an "application form" and making it clear that I had a serious dispute with BOS over the alleged debt which was never satisfied.

    Any further advice would be appreciated.



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