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long story but i ended up taking on a joint loan when i separtated with my partner some years ago. long term illness crept up on me and i have been paying a small monthly sum (as agreed) via agency.
as seems to be the norm with these groups they have changed over the years.
now i have a standing order for it to go out to Fenton Cooper...all well and good.
then i receieved a letter last novemeber from HL legal saying we now have the debt stop paying GPB and pay us :-?
well i sent them four e-mails between November and february using the e-mail on their website which i had no reply to.
well today i had a letter dated 8th March from them 'in association with SAMPSON & CO' saying a 'representative will be calling on you one day next week between 08.00-20-00hrs' with no indication as to why they are calling.
well of course i dug out the two other letters i have had from them and sent an e-mail containing my four previous e-mails-in the process, discovering they had changed the e-mail and the ones i sent had gone to
'inquiries@hllc.co.uk' while now on their website it has 'info@hllc.co.uk'
so i guess they could argue they never received them.
i have stopped the payments to Fenton (i do not have multiple loans with RBS!) and told HL that until i know what is going on and who has the debt (and where my money has been going) i wont be paying anything at all. tried to track down Fentons but can find no web site or anyhting...do they no longer exist?
i did say in the letter they did not have my consent to calling, they will not be invited in and if need be i will call the police.
i am thinking now if i should print out all the e-mails and stick in the psot to them?
I have M.E and become easily confused and so feeling a bit adrift right now.
Had virtually exactly the same issue.Got a letter last November claiming they were 'acting for' Intrum Justitia.letters produced the response that they were acting as solicitors.Checked on enerything they told me to do -check local court (no record of it);rang Northampton (no record of GPB but HL Legal as of January 2000, no update since then despite HL saying they had informed the court);Intrum Justitia have 'no record of the debt'
Rang GPB who said they had handed all documentation to HL in November. HL refuse to gibve a Statement of Account or a Notice of Assignment as they are adamant they are just solicitors. I haven't found anything to justify what they've said -ie they are lying
Sent a fax saying I wanted the Statement or Notice by the 22nd or I would be contacting the Law Society.Look up the regulations for solicitor behaviour-I'm goimng to use this. I don't have much respect for solicitors generally but to use your LLB to frighten people is low even by legal standards.Will post when I get a response (but don't think I will)
The only way of regulating these predators is to insist they compkly with the law and put everything in writing.It's astounding how eager they are not to deal in writing
i sent a CAA letter to the above as i had letters from them and another company for the same debt and i wanted to get it straight who had the debt and not be paying it out twice.
i had a reply from them today to a Mrs Ski*****~thats not me for a start!
they go onto to say...
'the agreement is no longer available'
'however we enclose a statement of the acount showing payments made to us since assignmant' -they probably have but there was no statement in with the letter.
'we acknowledge the fact until we comply with our obligation to send you a copy of your credit agreement pursuant to S.77(1) we cannot enforce your credit agreement through the courts'
'currently unable to take legal action...does not affect the validity of the debt. section 77(4) of the CAA does not make the agreement void, therefore as the debt still exists we are entitled to carry out any actions that do not amount to enforcing the Agreement including demanding payment,charging interest, transferring the debt to a third party, registering the debt with a credit reference agency and issuing a defult notice. this was upheld int he recent case of McGuffick v Royal Bank of Scotland Plc. We therefore reserve our right to register any defult with the credit reference agencies.'
'we agree the Agreement is unenforceable...we can prove that the money lent to you has not been repaid to date and therefore neither of these facts are in dispute and we consider this matter resolved'
'provide firm and realistic repayment proposal in next seven days to avoid further recovery action being taken' -the date of letter is 16th July and i receieved it today.
do i just make an offer and shut up? i am the DLC for both care and mobility and IB so the offer would be tiny-i still have bills to pay etc.
If you haven't already done them send them the account in dispute letter from the templates section of this website. Once the account is in dispute they shouldn't assign it to anyone else as to do so would breach OFT guidelines.
They can trash your credit reference file and if this is of concern you should check what's on your file currently. In particular, they can't place a default marker there if the account has already been defaulted.
As kiptower has asked when did you last make a payment or a written acknowledgement of the debt. If it's more than six years ago, then the debt is statute barred anyway.
As they've admitted in writing that they do not have a copy of the original agreement and they know it's unenforceable, I'd send them the Account In Dispute letter.
If you like, you could try the version I sent a DCA which is combined with the "No doorstep visits" and "No phone calls" letters.
If they still want to play at trying to enforce the alleged debt, all they can do is write to you, giving you further written proof that they are harassing you over an unproved debt. It clearly states they can't add interest to the account, they can't issue a default and they can't register any info with a Credit Reference Agency while it's in dispute too.
This was the letter I sent:
BY ROYAL MAIL RECORDED DELIVERY
Ref:
Dear Sir/Madam
ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE
Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been duly noted.
You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me with a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.
On xx/xx/xx I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. This was signed for as delivered and accepted on the xx/xx/xx.
You have failed to comply with my request, and as such, the account entered default on xx/xx/xx (12 + 2 working days).
The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments.
If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are alsoobliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition, a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.
Furthermore, you should be aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 (+2) working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you/your client enters into a default situation. This limit has now expired.
As you are no doubt aware, section 78(6) states:
If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)
(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.
Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.
You have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, failed to send a full statement of the account and failed to provide any of the documentation requested. You will also be aware of the CPUTR 2008 and the OFT's guidelines on debt collection which state under the title Deceptive and/or unfair methods - Examples of unfair practices are as follows –
2.8
(i) - 'Failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued'
(k) - 'Not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonable queried or disputed debt'
Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.
Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.
Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.
This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.
Should you refuse to comply, you must, within 21 days, provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.
It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; you must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.
Should you not respond within 21 days then your agreement to remove all such data is implied.
Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take any
action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.
The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies:
* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
* You may not pass the account to a third party.
* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.
I reserve the right to report any actions to the contrary to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.
You have 21 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.
If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the
creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.
Furthermore, I am requesting that all future contact with me should be in writing only, otherwise I will have no option but to report you to the OFT and Trading Standards Office for breach of their guidelines.
Similarly, should it be your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under OFT rules, you are only permitted to visit me at my residence if you make a prior appointment. Please note that I have no wish to make any such appointment with you or any representative of your company.
There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore, please take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance.
If you do not understand the contents of this letter, you should seek qualified legal advice.
I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.
Fools, admitting that they have nothing and can't enforce it...
Pay them nothing, they are not entitled to any of your money, if they can't keep their paperwork in order then that is their problem and won't last very long.
And if they have trashed your credit file and they don't have the agreement (CCA) then this is against the DPA and you should make a formal complaint to the ICO about this.
thank you all for this information~its all very helpful.
checking my bank statements it appears my last payment was in march of this year~i stopped because i was having more than one company chasing the same debt and thought it was a bit weird.
so, even if they have the statements of payment to them (which is my acknowledgement of the debt) and do send them to me, am i still able to send an account in dispute letter as suggested?
would someone please explain why?
is it because they do not have the original credit report and it is only enforcable with one?
sorry i do not understand how it all works! why does the original creditior not send the paperwork to these companies to ensure the money is collected?
i have checked my credit report via Experian today~i have never done it before as i was too scared to see what it would say
but there is nothing amiss, just a couple of checks over the last three months~this i think was because i applied for a new bank aco**** (updating from an easycash to regular current aco**** with same bank) and i had my credit card limit increased which was a surprise.
so i would not be happy to have fenton cooper trash my nice credit file~but then as bazooka boo pointed out 'if they have trashed your credit file and they don't have the agreement (CCA) then this is against the DPA and you should make a formal complaint to the ICO about this' and this is covered in halibutt's letter (amazing letter by the way!)
sorry to be such a pain but i find this all confusing.
Without a copy of the original credit agreement, there is no basis for a creditor to seek payment of the debt through the courts. In some instances they still try and very occasionally get away with very poor documentation. However, as FC have admitted, it's more normal for them not to bother.
There was a recent court case that decided that the absence of a credit agreement didn't stop a creditor from recording adverse information on a credit file. However, there have been instances where people have been compensated where information has been placed on a credit file without justification. It will come down to individual circumstances.
Your particular situation is a bit tricky. If there's nothing on your credit file then you could simply ignore FC and hope that they don't place anything there. On the other hand you could also make a Full and final settlement offer to them but somehow you would have to make this conditional on them not placing any information about it on your credit file.
thanks Seminole~as i put earlier i am DLA/IB for long term illness and so would never be able to make a Full and final settlement offer, if i am right, this is a final lump payment?
FrustratedUK, you're not being a pain mate, we've all been there.
I'm afraid I can't take credit for the letter - it's an amalgamation of a couple of templates on CAG.
But as Seminole says, if you are not in a position to make a Full and final settlement offer, make it clear to Fenton Cooper that you have understood their letter and that you consider the account to now be legally in dispute.
If nothing else, it will give you breathing space and they will be unable to collect on the alleged debt.
They probably can't provide you with a CCA because in the process of selling on the debt once or twice, paperwork has been lost, misfiled or simply didn't exist in the first place.
Once the account is in dispute, the onus is on Fenton Cooper to prove that the alleged debt is owed, not on you.
I'm sure more experienced CAGgers will have extra help for you soon, in the meantime, best of luck to you.
EDIT: If you do send anything, make it by registered post and don't sign your name, just print it. Keep a copy of anything you do send!
Please note, I am not professionally qualified in legal matters. Should you have any doubts, you should contact a legal expert!
However, I can and will help with matters regarding payroll as I am qualified in that!
hey all~i just remembered something as well about this.
i sent my CAA letter to fenton cooper with my £1 PO which they returned saying they did not deal with it, it was Tessera.
so i did the same but sent it to Tessera~but the letter i had back (the one that prompted my post here) returning the second PO came from fenton cooper~whats going on here?:-?
Fenton Cooper is a trading name of Tessera. They are essentially the same company. It's a common DCA tactic, designed to mislead people into thinking that there is some sort of escalation of process.
FrustratedUK - use what you like - as I said, it's just a couple of CAG templates that I pasted together!
When I sent my CCA, the DCA replied saying that they would get a copy in due course. They failed within the prescribed time period, so I sent the Account In Dispute letter. Still no further response a month later.
Please note, I am not professionally qualified in legal matters. Should you have any doubts, you should contact a legal expert!
However, I can and will help with matters regarding payroll as I am qualified in that!
i am all ready to print out my version of Halibutts letter but then thought...
as they returned my postal order does it negate everything? just wondering if this was some new thing they are trying?
also they sent me the letter i have quoted within the 12+2 days but not providing the required information so can i still send the letter (i sent it on the 7th so have worked out the 12+2 days will be the 27th)?
If they can't provide a valid CCA, then they're supposed to return your Postal Order.
The fact that they returned the PO along with a meaningless letter doesn't mean much, it just confirms they can't process your request.
No valid CCA = Account in dispute. You should be able to send your letter no problems.
Please note, I am not professionally qualified in legal matters. Should you have any doubts, you should contact a legal expert!
However, I can and will help with matters regarding payroll as I am qualified in that!
HL Legal-GPB~Fenton
!) and told HL that until i know what is going on and who has the debt (and where my money has been going) i wont be paying anything at all. tried to track down Fentons but can find no web site or anyhting...do they no longer exist?
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i am the DLC for both care and mobility and IB so the offer would be tiny-i still have bills to pay etc.
