Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.
The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights
a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.
I recently travelled from Bank to Potters Bar, via Moorgate. I touched in at Bank, and as I had never used FCC before or knew that Oyster was only valid upto Hadley Wood (one station prior to Potters Bar), I got onto the train as it was right next to escalator up from the northern line platform, with hardly any signs or any opportunities to purchase a ticket at all. So much to my suprise, I couldnt get out at Potters Bar as there was no oyster touch in/out and the 'kind' FCC Inspector told me that I would incur a penalty fare now of £20. I explained my case to him, but he wasnt having any of it, and I would have gone back to Hadley Wood, but I was running late for an interview. He took a card imprint, and gave me some sort of appeal form, but no details from me whatsoever. On my way back I purchased a return ticket for £8, as I intended to appeal the fare and show FCC that they had not lost any revenue as I had purchased a return ticket anyway. According to http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/4026/get the Train Operator should make it relatively straightforward and well advertised how to purchase a ticket, before they get on a train and in this case it wasnt at all.
But anyways, I'm furious that the FCC staff showed no leniency towards my situation and was quite rude and told me call TFL if I felt that I was hard done by. So I am thinking that since FCC have no information on me other than a debit card imprint, I am considering cancelling my debit card and asking my bank to re-issue another card. If FCC want to pursue me for the penalty fare, then so be it, but I'm not fuelling the cash cow that is the penalty fare system.
It is very likely to result in a prosecution. You can be traced from your credit card details and under Section 29 of the Data Protection Act the Rail Company can ask the British Transport Police to make a data release request from your card provider in the interest of prevention of crime, because if you stop payment, there is then evidence of an attempt to avoid a fare.
You should appeal the notice through the proper process.
Let's look at your story:
Firstly, the escalators from the Northern Line are not 'right next to' the platform that you would have caught a train to Potters Bar from
If the train left from the mainline station the nearest platform to the underground that it could have left from is platform 8. Coming up from the Underground via the shortest route you would come out right next to the booking office on your left on the mainline concourse, so there was ample opportunity to buy the extension ticket, which you needed
It is up to you to check the validity of any ticket that you are intending to use to ensure it is valid for your whole intended journey before travelling and there are clear zonal maps for the London Regional Transport area (including London Underground) displayed all over the Train and Tube network. There is an underground booking offce in the walkway from the Tube to the mainline station and maps displayed along the walls.
Secondly, if you came out of any of the other access / exits from the Underground and went to a platform between 1 and 8 in the mainline station, you would have to walk past the booking office and signs warning the traveller that penalty fares are in operation.
Third, If your train left from any of the suburban platforms 9 to 11 there is no excuse for not having a valid ticket as both the platform 8 to 9 access area to the right hand side and the main entrance have a staffed barrier line with automatic gates and warning signs.
Coming from the Underground through the main entrance to the suburban station you first have to pass the (FCC) booking office on your right if you come from the St Pancras side and also through a barrier line where there are staff to whom you could have spoken to sort out your additional ticketing need.
If I were you, I would pay the £20 Penalty Fare and learn from the experience.
It is up to you to ensure that you hold a valid ticket for your whole intended journey before boarding any train where pre-purchase facilities are available
Ha...I like Old-Codja's detailed answer,..such a train spotter..
Have to agree though, just pay the £20, there are numerous threads on here from people facing court action and potential fines of £200 plus, so think yourself lucky. By only charging you the penalty fare he has shown some degree of leniancy.
The Oyster fare zone is quite well explained and there are numerous posters all over London tubes and trains explaining it, In the past it was a bit more confusing as you could be within the zones and your Oyster still not valid depending on which train company you were on but that has changed now.
Andy
Thank you for your help. A few points though.
I don't see how charging the £20 penalty is being lenient? A day return is £8 and double that is £16. Excuse me for not agreeing on this point.
I agree that the onus is on the passenger to ensure that they have a valid ticket for their whole journey, but in some cases this is extremely misleading. When I returned to potters bar station on the way home, I saw signs saying Oyster is accepted on National Rail. It is not wholly unreasonable for a layman to misinterpet this.
Old-Codja
I am going to revisit Moorgate station as it is not a station I am familiar with, but I am almost certain that as I got on the escalator from the northern line northbound platform, there was a sign for Platforms 9-10 'Trains to Stevenage', which I followed and that led me immediately onto the middle of the platform. At no point do I recall seeing a barrier, ticket machine, ticket office, or FCC staff.
Also, what if someone did lose their debit card. Would it not be unreasonable to seek prosecution immediately even if the passenger had agreed to pay the penalty fare. From what I have gathered, this is different to the cases where people are being prosecuted after having handed their details over.
Sorry, but I refuse to fuel this cash cow for a train operator that has cancelled 1.81% of its trains and 14.38% of its trains were delayed more than 4m 59s ( in 2008 ) and has a petition signed by 5,000 people demanding the company should be stripped of its franchise.
Andy
Thank you for your help. A few points though.
I don't see how charging the £20 penalty is being lenient? A day return is £8 and double that is £16. Excuse me for not agreeing on this point.
I agree that the onus is on the passenger to ensure that they have a valid ticket for their whole journey, but in some cases this is extremely misleading. When I returned to potters bar station on the way home, I saw signs saying Oyster is accepted on National Rail. It is not wholly unreasonable for a layman to misinterpet this.
Old-Codja
I am going to revisit Moorgate station as it is not a station I am familiar with, but I am almost certain that as I got on the escalator from the northern line northbound platform, there was a sign for Platforms 9-10 'Trains to Stevenage', which I followed and that led me immediately onto the middle of the platform. At no point do I recall seeing a barrier, ticket machine, ticket office, or FCC staff.
Also, what if someone did lose their debit card. Would it not be unreasonable to seek prosecution immediately even if the passenger had agreed to pay the penalty fare. From what I have gathered, this is different to the cases where people are being prosecuted after having handed their details over.
Sorry, but I refuse to fuel this cash cow for a train operator that has cancelled 1.81% of its trains and 14.38% of its trains were delayed more than 4m 59s ( in 2008 ) and has a petition signed by 5,000 people demanding the company should be stripped of its franchise.
hsuffyan,
I am awfully sorry, I cannot even think that I misread your post, but I have referred to accessing the Potters Bar train from Kings Cross and not Moorgate as you said. I do apologise.
Nonetheless, the comments regarding signage and the traveller' responsibilities remain the same. There is a booking office at Moorgate and clear signs warn that a Penalty Fare regime is in opertation.
Oyster can be accepted at some National Rail stations, but only where the facility to touch-in to access the system is available and it is clear where this exists.
The train running and timetable issues have no relevence to your case. The figures you quote are accurate for 2008. The issue is that in 2010 you were travelling without a valid ticket.
If you wish to pursue the matter of poor running and management, that is the subject of a separate complaint that you should make to the rail operator or, ATOC.
On the day of travel, you intended to travel to Potters Bar and only held an Oyster card. The Oyster card is only accepted in the TfL area and going North on the GN route that ends at Hadley Wood.
All of the information is made freely available to you and it is your responsibility to check.
The Penalty Fare Notice has been correctly made out.
As far as a lost or stolen card is concerned, if you reported a credit or debit card lost then there is a process for dealing with that and of course the record will show what occurred and the time when any transactions were made.
I am awfully sorry, I cannot even think that I misread your post, but I have referred to accessing the Potters Bar train from Kings Cross and not Moorgate as you said. I do apologise.
Nonetheless, the comments regarding signage and the traveller' responsibilities remain the same. There is a booking office at Moorgate and clear signs warn that a Penalty Fare regime is in opertation.
Oyster can be accepted at some National Rail stations, but only where the facility to touch-in to access the system is available and it is clear where this exists.
The train running and timetable issues have no relevence to your case. The figures you quote are accurate for 2008. The issue is that in 2010 you were travelling without a valid ticket.
If you wish to pursue the matter of poor running and management, that is the subject of a separate complaint that you should make to the rail operator or, ATOC.
On the day of travel, you intended to travel to Potters Bar and only held an Oyster card. The Oyster card is only accepted in the TfL area and going North on the GN route that ends at Hadley Wood.
All of the information is made freely available to you and it is your responsibility to check.
The Penalty Fare Notice has been correctly made out.
As far as a lost or stolen card is concerned, if you reported a credit or debit card lost then there is a process for dealing with that and of course the record will show what occurred and the time when any transactions were made.
You made a mistake, to prevent other forum users from making this mistake, you are now legally obliged to pay £20, or face prosecution. If you want to appeal, you have to put it in writing. I understand it was an honest mistake, but you have to pay the £20.
If only forums worked like rail operators.... could be making a mint by now.
A lot of your comments, remind me of the time when the clamping lot tried to fight their corner over at pepipoo.com, its interesting how all the current/ex rail employees have such strong views on this matter. £20 a pop certainly helps cash flow.
might I add... i fail to see the threat in such a poorly managed operation such as FCC actually going through the hassle of contacting BTP and getting my details from my bank in order to pursue me, and I checked the platform at lunchtime at Moorgate, and lo and behold.... no opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding the train from the northern line escalators. I'll see FCC and their revenue protection officers aka snotty mongrels in court. I also strongly suspect that their revenue protection officers get a little sadistic joy out of making people squirm when they are already panicked, must be a certain breed I guess.
Surely if a Debit Card was used as payment, the funds would have been deducted instantly, thus rendering the cancellantion pointless...Or am I missing the point?
Surely if a Debit Card was used as payment, the funds would have been deducted instantly, thus rendering the cancellantion pointless...Or am I missing the point?
The FCC employee took a card imprint. I think they have to call up an authorisation line to put the payment through. Someone else will be probably be able to clarify what the rail company does with the card details.
Anyway: I have been the victim of people cancelling cards in the past against legitimate transactions: as a small business owner (now) I persue every single one via the banks own chargeback appeals section and the banks ALWAYS then put such disputes onto their fraud section.
If I do this in a business of 6 employees: then you can be damn sure the railway companies will.
Since you would have been on CCTV during questioning (?) tell me how you intend to now claim the card was lost/stolen before (and as yet unreported lost/stolen) to the bank/police?
I think a £20 PF would be the least of your worries if the bank/police/cps decided to persue you for making false statements with the intent of fraudulently reporting a crime and gaining a pecuniary advantage in so doing?
You seem like a reasonably intelligent person so what's the point in making a stand by digging an far deeper and *****ier hole than you have (and I believe you) inadvertently strayed?
Anyway: I have been the victim of people cancelling cards in the past against legitimate transactions: as a small business owner (now) I persue every single one via the banks own chargeback appeals section and the banks ALWAYS then put such disputes onto their fraud section.
If I do this in a business of 6 employees: then you can be damn sure the railway companies will.
Since you would have been on CCTV during questioning (?) tell me how you intend to now claim the card was lost/stolen before (and as yet unreported lost/stolen) to the bank/police?
I think a £20 PF would be the least of your worries if the bank/police/cps decided to persue you for making false statements with the intent of fraudulently reporting a crime and gaining a pecuniary advantage in so doing?
You seem like a reasonably intelligent person so what's the point in making a stand by digging an far deeper and *****ier hole than you have (and I believe you) inadvertently strayed?
Yes I have strayed a little from the original advice I sought. The attitude I encountered on the day by the FCC employee has left a really bad taste in my mouth, and for what its worth I am lucky enough to be able to afford the penalty fare without worrying about it too much. But thats besides the point.
I have not said that I wish to defraud the rail operator, nor do I disagree that there is CCTV evidence of me being at the station. However, how can the rail operator prove infront of a magistrate that I did not genuinely lose my debit card, and if it does seek to prosecute me for losing my debit card then I would love to see a magistrate rule in their favour on this basis only. I am also looking at the possibility of procedural impropriety occuring in my situation, based on the way the Penalty Fare Notice / Receipt was completed by the FCC employee.
Bottom line is, if FCC do manage to contact me, I will happily pay the £20 penalty fare, but I fail to see the threat of prosecution based on the situation as it stands.
I am sorry for hurting your feelings, just being direct and exercising my right to speak my mind.
That is exactly what I did when I gave direct advice in respect of the process that does ensue in these cases.
The advice was freely given and without the use of insults and is here for everyone else to read, but what did you do? You accused me of being 'vengeful & spiteful' then refer to other people, performing their role in life as 'snotty mongrels'
As I said earlier, you make your attitude to others as clear as day. Please rest assurred that you have not 'hurt my feelings' nor will you.
That is exactly what I did when I gave direct advice in respect of the process that does ensue in these cases.
The advice was freely given and without the use of insults and is here for everyone else to read, but what did you do? You accused me of being 'vengeful & spiteful' then refer to other people, performing their role in life as 'snotty mongrels'
As I said earlier, you make your attitude to others as clear as day. Please rest assurred that you have not 'hurt my feelings' nor will you.
Good luck in pursuing your own agenda.
Had you not worked for a rail operator, your comments may not have had got my goat as they did. Its a bit like a parking warden coming on here and doing the same in the parking forums. Can't help but doubt their impartiality. But anyway, I appreciate all the time and effort you have spent in corresponding with me on this matter and on the other thread.
I stand by the comments I made re: 'snotty mongrels' because there was a certain malice in the FCC employee's tone when he delt with me and it was the way he mocked me which was infuriating. In my line of work, the way I deal with members of the public reflect wholly upon my organisation, I dont see why anyone else should be treated any differently and not be expected to uphold the reputation of their company.
Had you not worked for a rail operator, your comments may not have had got my goat as they did. Its a bit like a parking warden coming on here and doing the same in the parking forums. Can't help but doubt their impartiality. But anyway, I appreciate all the time and effort you have spent in corresponding with me on this matter and on the other thread.
I stand by the comments I made re: 'snotty mongrels' because there was a certain malice in the FCC employee's tone when he delt with me and the way he mocked me which was infuriating. In my line of work, the way I deal with members of the public reflect wholly upon my organisation, I dont see why anyone else should be treated any differently and not be expected to uphold the reputation of their company.
I agree that everyone has a right to be treated with respect and should be accorded that right regardless of who they are or what job they do.
In my book that means both you and the member of staff concerned and the principle applies to Parking Wardens, Revenue Protection Inspectors, washroom attendants and Police officers just as surely as management executives, Doctors etc and every other person trying to earn a living.
Your insults are unnecessary and out of order in my view simply because yours is a one-sided story in posting here. You know full well that the individual concerned in issuing you a Penalty Notice cannot post openly here to counter your claims even if they read the thread.
I don't say that you intended to avoid a fare at the outset, but nothing will alter the fact that facilities were and are, available to pay a fare at Moorgate and the responsibility for ensuring the correct ticket is held for the whole journey before travelling rests with the traveller. You had a responsibility to check at Bank and pay any excess fare there before catching any train.
This principle was established by Act of Parliament more than 120 years ago. Well before the demise of BR the introduction of the first Penalty Fares legislation in 1989 strengthened the position and that has subsequently been refined and strengthened through the later Railways Acts and amendments. It is quite simply a penalty for failing to comply with a strict liability requirement.
As I have said and will repeat here, your proper course of action, whether you have paid or not, is to submit a written appeal within 21 days and all the necessary details are printed on the notice.
quote:''However, how can the rail operator prove infront of a magistrate that I did not genuinely lose my debit card, and if it does seek to prosecute me for losing my debit card then I would love to see a magistrate rule in their favour on this basis only.''
The Toc won't prosecute for losing a debit card -you miss my point, so I'm sorry I didn't make it more clear:
IF you cancel your debit card and claim it to have been 'lost' BEFORE the point where you were interviewed and the imprint taken, the CCTV will be used by whomever (bearing in mind the banks fraud department would now be the 'victim' as you would HAVE to claim to them -in writing - that the card was used without your authority and NOT by you) to prove at the time of the imprint that it was in YOUR possession and used by YOU, the CCTV is timed and the equipment is checked regularly and certificated to ensure it can be used for evidence.
This makes the PF pale into insignificance as you are then liable to be prosecuted by the bank for fraud: I suspect the TOC would then probably just assist the bank with evidence.
£20PF or £?????? fine/worse....... like I say: deep hole getting deeper and s****ier by the moment.
£20PF or £?????? fine/worse....... like I say: deep hole getting deeper and s****ier by the moment.
Ha..My thoughts exactly.....Although the FCC website is rather confusing about Oyster usage, (a quick visit to their website may leave your brain hurting, especially if you compare the maps and rule pre and after January 2010).
However no-one can realisticaly jump on a tube in central london and exit via a train some 30 miles away and expect the whole journey to be covered by an Oyster card, it really is upto the traveller to check the limits of Oyster uasge before he travels. A £20 penalty fare isnt a huge amount of money and it certainly guarantees the traveller will be more careful next time.
Old-Codja certainly comes in for a lot of stick at times when he responds with answers that posters don't want to hear, but his insight into the world of train travel and penalty fares/fines is invaluable in this forum.
Hi
I was started my journey from Maryland but forgot to touch so I touch in at startford while toiaching at startford dlr u was caught by an inpector . He took my details and rod me tfl will contact me I explained him that I got a train from Maryland national express which is zone 3 and now m in startford which is also in zone 3 I have touch in and going to touch out at lewisham he dint listen to me and took my details now I have got a letter from prosecution unit. They have asked me to reply them and otherwise they will take legal action .....plz help as I don't want my career to end before it starts...
Originally Posted by Old-CodJA
I agree that everyone has a right to be treated with respect and should be accorded that right regardless of who they are or what job they do.
In my book that means both you and the member of staff concerned and the principle applies to Parking Wardens, Revenue Protection Inspectors, washroom attendants and Police officers just as surely as management executives, Doctors etc and every other person trying to earn a living.
Your insults are unnecessary and out of order in my view simply because yours is a one-sided story in posting here. You know full well that the individual concerned in issuing you a Penalty Notice cannot post openly here to counter your claims even if they read the thread.
I don't say that you intended to avoid a fare at the outset, but nothing will alter the fact that facilities were and are, available to pay a fare at Moorgate and the responsibility for ensuring the correct ticket is held for the whole journey before travelling rests with the traveller. You had a responsibility to check at Bank and pay any excess fare there before catching any train.
This principle was established by Act of Parliament more than 120 years ago. Well before the demise of BR the introduction of the first Penalty Fares legislation in 1989 strengthened the position and that has subsequently been refined and strengthened through the later Railways Acts and amendments. It is quite simply a penalty for failing to comply with a strict liability requirement.
As I have said and will repeat here, your proper course of action, whether you have paid or not, is to submit a written appeal within 21 days and all the necessary details are printed on the notice.
Reply to the letter. Does it offer an alternative to prosecution or is it simply asking you to verify details and give an explanation?
There are several points to 'touching in' when first boarding:
It ensures that the correct operator gets proper payment for the service provided.
It validates your presence on a train.
The purpose in issuing penalty fares or fines is to 'encourage' everyone to remember to touch in properly.
The 'inspector' only has your word that you boarded at Maryland. If you had touched in properly, there would not be an issue, but as it stands, for all he/us/the world knows, you may have got on at Billericay or Benbecula.
Hi
I was started my journey from Maryland but forgot to touch so I touch in at startford while toiaching at startford dlr u was caught by an inpector . He took my details and rod me tfl will contact me I explained him that I got a train from Maryland national express which is zone 3 and now m in startford which is also in zone 3 I have touch in and going to touch out at lewisham he dint listen to me and took my details now I have got a letter from prosecution unit. They have asked me to reply them and otherwise they will take legal action .....plz help as I don't want my career to end before it starts...
Wriggler is right of course, you could have travelled from any of a number of stations, but the one thing the inspector could prove is that you were in a compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket
One question intrigues me though, you say it was at Stratford DLR where you were spoken to by an inspector and that you have now received a 'letter from the prosecution unit'.
Is this a DLR prosecution or a letter from TfL ?
Who is prosecuting you and what is the charge they are alleging?
Penalty Fare FCC - card imprint taken
Reply With Quote
Originally Posted by hsuffyan
