Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.
The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights
a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.
I've been a long time reader of these forums, building up my own knowledge and have begun the process of fighting back at HSBC and believe I have a good game plan. But as is necessary with anything in life, the advice of others is a good thing so here goes.
Situation
HSBC current account with £800 overdraft is currently £11 overdrawn.
Current account has in excess of £700 in charges and interest, exact amount needs to be confirmed by myself.
Current account has been unused for several months and in HSBC's eyes is locked down. (Money can go in, but none come out. Interesting concept I must say).
Request has been made for return of charges with no success, hardship also applied for.
Credit card which is maxed out at £2000, minimum payment was a direct debit from above current account, now stuck in a cycle of not being able to take money due to account being locked.
Credit card is also locked for use, I imagine money could go in as well but never tried.
Requests made to this point
Request for charges refund - failed due to OFT case.
Request for hardship.
Subject access request has been made - due back Feb 14th at which point I'll establish exact overdraft charges.
Letter for telephone harassment sent - all correspondence to be made in writing.
Game plan
Ok this game plan is potentially a pipe dream, which is why I seek the opinion of this wonderful forum.
HSBC are not going to give up the overdraft charges with much ease, probably want to drag it through a small claims court. As a student this will probably benefit me. Can't see a court siding with a global bank over a poor student who survives solely on government loans and grants.
But it's not exactly what I want, means getting solicitors involved and costing all sorts of extra money, so I feel I hold all the cards (no pun) including some collateral.
In my opinion the outstanding credit card is my collateral, I've had my final letter through in which they request my reply in 28 days or they'll take further action and submit me to a credit destroying agency. In the next day or so I'll send a letter requesting that all interest and charges are halted on the card and that I begin paying back the outstanding amount at £5 a month. At this point also reinstate my requirement to have the charges refunded immediately.
Hi cforcu,
First of all the overdraft and charges need to have been applied correctly with the bank taking advantage of the OFT determination in order to be exempt from having to provide you with an agreement. A SAR will help you with this.
Credit Card fee's have never been subject to the bank charge debarcle and you have every right to challenge those. The bank will typically lie by stating the the OFT says £12 is a fair fee for CC charges and thats why it can charge that amount. This is nonsense. The OFT merely stated that it would not investigate any CC providers charge tariffs if they were not above £12 deciding that their time could be better used elsewhere. Doing what exactly I have no idea but that's another story.
As such you can claim that their charges have created an unfair relationship, a fairly recent consumer right that importantly shifts the burden of proof from you to the banks. EG - The bank needs to prove to you that £12 is indeed representative and 'fair'. Getting them to do this however is another matter, the banks willfully ignoring the government so a partially toothless 'Ruegulatory Body' is cannon fodder. In essence though a sustained credit card charge attack can be fruitful but they'll make you jump through all manner of hoops before you'll see a penny.
As for the bank seeing you as a student and therefore not worthy of litigation you really need to adjust your perspective. The bank has no interests in who you are, what your status is or what your excuses may be. If they have a solid case against you and they have exhausted normal collection activity they will consider litigation and they will seek to recover their money.
Equally the court has little time for David and Goliath remediation and will happily award against you as Bill Gates. You are merely a claim number, they will process it, consider the evidence of both parties (if you choose to defend the amount claimed) and reach a decision. As such you need to realise this fact for your future well being.
Your best option initially is to establish the merit of their potential claim and determine your position accordingly. Send the SAR to obtain account information in order to audit each account.
CCA for any account you have (let the bank tell you a current account isn't subject to the Consumer Credit Act) and put all your paperwork in order so you know what's what. Have you been defaulted yet? If yes do you have the Default Notice?
Hi emandcole, thank you for your exhaustive reply.
Originally Posted by emandcole
Hi cforcu,
First of all the overdraft and charges need to have been applied correctly with the bank taking advantage of the OFT determination in order to be exempt from having to provide you with an agreement. A SAR will help you with this.
I received my SAR back today. Not quite sure what you're saying here. They've already refused to refund the charges on my current account, I've applied for hardship and will follow it up with proof.
Credit Card fee's have never been subject to the bank charge debarcle and you have every right to challenge those. The bank will typically lie by stating the the OFT says £12 is a fair fee for CC charges and thats why it can charge that amount. This is nonsense. The OFT merely stated that it would not investigate any CC providers charge tariffs if they were not above £12 deciding that their time could be better used elsewhere. Doing what exactly I have no idea but that's another story.
As such you can claim that their charges have created an unfair relationship, a fairly recent consumer right that importantly shifts the burden of proof from you to the banks. EG - The bank needs to prove to you that £12 is indeed representative and 'fair'. Getting them to do this however is another matter, the banks willfully ignoring the government so a partially toothless 'Ruegulatory Body' is cannon fodder. In essence though a sustained credit card charge attack can be fruitful but they'll make you jump through all manner of hoops before you'll see a penny.
I will send a later offering repayment of the credit card at a low rate and with them holding all further charges and interest. As there are charges on the credit card I'll ask for these back as well.
As for the bank seeing you as a student and therefore not worthy of litigation you really need to adjust your perspective. The bank has no interests in who you are, what your status is or what your excuses may be. If they have a solid case against you and they have exhausted normal collection activity they will consider litigation and they will seek to recover their money.
This may be true, they're not going to be able to seek money that I don't have though. Somethings are simply impossible and that is one of them.
Unfortunately I was viewing that particular point from the view of a court, if it stretches that far then thankfully a judge will look at my personal case and who I am and what I do.
Equally the court has little time for David and Goliath remediation and will happily award against you as Bill Gates. You are merely a claim number, they will process it, consider the evidence of both parties (if you choose to defend the amount claimed) and reach a decision. As such you need to realise this fact for your future well being.
Your best option initially is to establish the merit of their potential claim and determine your position accordingly. Send the SAR to obtain account information in order to audit each account.
CCA for any account you have (let the bank tell you a current account isn't subject to the Consumer Credit Act) and put all your paperwork in order so you know what's what. Have you been defaulted yet? If yes do you have the Default Notice?
Found a CCA for my credit card, it's a true copy signed by me. Yet to find a CCA for my current account, what if I don't?
I have defaulted for the credit card and I do have a copy of the default notice, only a matter of time I imagine until Metro is on my back.
Spent the last 2 and a bit hours searching through all the papers they sent me. Despite them being rather confusing I cannot find any transaction info for my credit card. Current account is there but nada for credit card.
Found a CCA for my credit card, it's a true copy signed by me.
Yet to find a CCA for my current account, what if I don't?
There probably won't be a CCA for your current account ...... it's not subject to the Consumer Credit Act ......it's a different type of agreement altogether .....
not sure what you mean in your last post (#10) ....do you mean statements ?
Nemo me impune lacessit
Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.
If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star
There probably won't be a CCA for your current account ...... it's not subject to the Consumer Credit Act ......it's a different type of agreement altogether .....
not sure what you mean in your last post (#10) ....do you mean statements ?
Statements, that's the word I was looking for!
Basically I have a letter composed offering a £5 per month payment plan of the credit card, additionally I need to calculate the charges on the account to ensure I'm not paying them off and that they're refunded. Rather impossible without statements.
I agree , write back and tell them they haven't fully complied with your CCA request of xx xxx xx , for which you paid them ..... in that (list what you think is missing ) and tell them that failure to comply within 14 days will result in a complaint to the Information Commissioner.........
Nemo me impune lacessit
Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.
If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star
Bank account overdrafts are subject to the consumer credit act but the bank needs to take advantage of the OFT Determination that allows them to escape the part where they need to provide a written agreement on demand. They do this by sending the appropriate letters within certain timescales that detail what are equivalent to prescriber terms, the interest they will be applying to the overdraft being one of them.
If the bank does not send such information out they have failed to secure the security the OFT Determination provides and would then have to produce an agreement for the overdraft they have provided. If you CCA for a bank account the bank will respond and state an OD is not governed by the CCA which is only a half truth. The reality is they may well have sent those letters at the appropriate times but the big question is - Can the bank show you copies of the letters they sent to you?
Quite often they cannot. In that case you have some leverage which can be useful. Technically these letters should be provided in the SAR information they send.
Cforcu - if you can get the default scanned in any way that would be great. Failing that if you can type it out on here that would be fine. A pain I know but if it's wrong that'll be of great use to you. We mainly need to know the date on the letter and the first parts, with particular attention being the wording of the dates they want you to pay them by.
Thanks for the enlightenment on that emandcole .....I knew it was something they frequently try to weasel out of ........
Nemo me impune lacessit
Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.
If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star
Bank account overdrafts are subject to the consumer credit act but the bank needs to take advantage of the OFT Determination that allows them to escape the part where they need to provide a written agreement on demand. They do this by sending the appropriate letters within certain timescales that detail what are equivalent to prescriber terms, the interest they will be applying to the overdraft being one of them.
If the bank does not send such information out they have failed to secure the security the OFT Determination provides and would then have to produce an agreement for the overdraft they have provided. If you CCA for a bank account the bank will respond and state an OD is not governed by the CCA which is only a half truth. The reality is they may well have sent those letters at the appropriate times but the big question is - Can the bank show you copies of the letters they sent to you?
Quite often they cannot. In that case you have some leverage which can be useful. Technically these letters should be provided in the SAR information they send.
Cforcu - if you can get the default scanned in any way that would be great. Failing that if you can type it out on here that would be fine. A pain I know but if it's wrong that'll be of great use to you. We mainly need to know the date on the letter and the first parts, with particular attention being the wording of the dates they want you to pay them by.
Could type it out in a few minutes, probably best if I get hold of scanning facilities for future advantages though.
If you have the letters they will be clearly referring to the overdraft and should detail the terms of the OD, you'll know them if you find them as they are so specific.
As for scanning it will probably be very useful to have access to one. If you can't scan right now then just get the date of the deafult up together with the date they want you to pay by. If there is no date and they just say pay within 17 days of the above date for example then include that instead.
If you have the letters they will be clearly referring to the overdraft and should detail the terms of the OD, you'll know them if you find them as they are so specific.
I'll keep looking, nothing so far.
As for scanning it will probably be very useful to have access to one. If you can't scan right now then just get the date of the deafult up together with the date they want you to pay by. If there is no date and they just say pay within 17 days of the above date for example then include that instead.
DN for my credit card is dated 25 January 2010. Presumably, I received it a couple of days after that.
A little further down they repeat three times that unless "a payment sufficient to clear the overdue amount shown" is paid before 8th February 2010 then no action will be taken. Failure to meet that date will result in "further action set out below".
Below reads the usual, they'll terminate the agreement. Also they'll refer me to a credit agency within 28 days unless I take action.
Today I sent two letters, one offering credit card repayments starting at £5/month included was a spreadsheet of my budget. I also sent another letter about my hardship case referring to the overdraft charges, once again with the spreadsheet included.
Bank Charges and Credit Card
and believe I have a good game plan. But as is necessary with anything in life, the advice of others is a good thing so here goes.
Reply With Quote
Originally Posted by emandcole
