Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

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  1. #1
    Basic Account Holder jbbs Novitiate

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    Default Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    Hi guys, hoping someone can help me out here, cant remember the exact details of the problem (as in time etc) but i think i have it pretty much spot on.

    I started my journey at Bounds Green in the morning (peak time) on my way to university. I had a presentation at Uni with a mate and we decided to meet up at Kings Cross station (underground). So there was me looking like a mug waiting for him underground for about an hour or so, so i would say i was underground for more or less and hour and 20 mins, i touched out at Kings cross (knowing that if you stay underground for more than 2 hours youll get charged) So i gave him a call no answer (underground?) phoned his house, mum picks up says he left, i go back underground where we were suppose to meet and wait for him for another good 40-60 mins or so? He doesnt show up so i head back to Bounds Green and head back home.

    When i touch out at Bounds green i get charged for an incomplete journey, why? i was not underground for more than two hours OR touched in and out at the same station, so why was i charged?

    This has happend to me once before about 5 or 6 months ago, where again i touched in at Bounds green, waited again for him again at Kings cross (lol he normally turns up just incase your all wondering), he never turned up, wasnt underground for 2 hours and i go back and touch out at wood green and then get charged for an incomplete journey. (has this one anything to do with the fact that the two stations i next to eachother? the guy at the counter tried to explain it to me, though he was not fluent in english and i never quite understood his explanation)

    Hope all that made sense. Please can someone try and explain to me why on these two occasions i got charged?


  2. #2
    Basic Account Holder jbbs Novitiate

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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    anyone?


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    I think following your explanation above gives a good clue unless you have mossed something out

    1. You state that you travelled from Bounds Green (touched in)
    2. You state that you touched out at Kings Cross
    3. You state that you were charged the maximum fare for an incomplete journey on arrival back at Wood Green

    This would appear to be correct because you do not mention touching in again to start of your later journey to Wood Green


  4. #4
    Basic Account Holder jbbs Novitiate

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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    Quote Originally Posted by Old-CodJA View Post
    I think following your explanation above gives a good clue unless you have mossed something out

    1. You state that you travelled from Bounds Green (touched in)
    2. You state that you touched out at Kings Cross
    3. You state that you were charged the maximum fare for an incomplete journey on arrival back at Wood Green

    This would appear to be correct because you do not mention touching in again to start of your later journey to Wood Green
    Not sure which one you mean but if you mean my first journey i forgot to mention, that i did touch in (after touching out) at Kings cross when going back to BOUNDS Green. What i did was I made the phone callicon which was no longer than 5 -10 mins then went back and touched in at kings cross and went back to bounds green. Is there a certain time limit from where you touch out and are allowed to touch back in again at the station?

    If your talking about my second journey, i touched in at bounds green, waited (underground) at kings cross, mate never arrived, so traveled back to wood green and touched out there, knowing that i couldnt touch back out at bounds green.

    Hope that makes it more clear.


  5. #5
    Basic Account Holder jbbs Novitiate

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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    Hi, i've found the receipt for my second journey! (joy!!)

    I started my journey from bounds green at 11:43, i arrived back at wood green at 1:17 and it doesnt say "incomplete journey" it says "unstarted" with a charge of 4.30.


  6. #6
    Basic Account Holder jbbs Novitiate

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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    One last post before i hush as i got to start some uni work in a bit. I was searching google for 'unstarted' charges and found this:

    > Touching out and touching straight back in at the same station doesn't
    > necessarily end and restart a new journey, and there are logical reasons for
    > this. Once a journey that has been joined to another goes beyond the time
    > limit (and that limit is variable dependent on zones crossed) the first part
    > of the journey becomes 'uncompleted' and the latter part 'unstarted'. This
    > is charged as two 'maximum cash fares' and doesn't contributeicon to the daily
    > cap.

    So would it not make more sense to only combine them if the combined
    journey is within the time limit for the overall journey and keep them
    as separate journeys[1] if the combined journey would be over the time
    limit. Also, always treat it as 2 separate journeys rather than
    combining them where someone touches in at A, touches out at B, then
    later touches in again at B travels to A and touches out.
    [1] As long as the time between between each touch in and the next touch
    out is within the time limit.

    --------------------------------------

    I think this could explain both my journeys, but dont quite understand what they mean by 'new journeys' etc, can anyone desribe it in more basic terminology? What do they mean by time limits etc?

    Sorry.

    Thx.


  7. #7
    Basic Account Holder jbbs Novitiate

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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    No one?


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    To be certain of anything, I always find that so far as Oyster is concerned, it is much better to see the record from the Oyster monitoring system to be sure of what is alleged. This records all your touch-in and outs and has accurate timings along with location and credit details.

    You can get a print out of your card transactions for the last 8 weeks by calling the Oyster Helpline on 0845 330 9876 and you can query the matter at the same time


  9. #9
    Basic Account Holder MBMB11 Novitiate

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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    On Oyster, if you touch in and out within 5 minutes a the same station, it charges you the full possible fare for your journey. This is because a lot of people would touch in, then immediately touch out to 'complete ' their journeys, and before tfl cottoned onto this were being charged the minimum fare possible. I would always advise if you finish a journey and notice a problem, go straight to a ticket office window where most staff will resolve your journey.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    Hello,

    I had the same problem twice this weekend and was able to get a refund. I went from shepherds bush market (touch in) to Kings cross st-Pancras (touch out) and then ~15 minutes later from Kings cross st-Pancras (touch in) back to Shepherds bush market (touch out). On touching out at Shepherds Bush market I noticed 4.30 was retrieved from my card which was wrong.

    Then I called the Oyster helpline and explained the issue. They agreed there was a problem and said they were aware of this issue. It is a bug that was introduced in Jan 2010 when oyster card became valid on National Rail. It affects all stations with an interchange to rail network (Kings Cross, Victoria, etc.). Since you are touching out in one of those stations, the system somehow expects you to continue your journey. But if you go back in less than ~30 min or so it does not work correctly.

    I think it is quite outrageous that we are now already end of May (nearly 5 months since Jan), that this issue has not yet been fixed at their end and that TFL just keeps quiet about this. It potentially affect thousands of travellers, whenever for example you go to bring some friends to the train station and back home.

    Only solution currently if you planning to go to a train station and back is having 2 different oyster cards (one for departure, one for return journey) or systematically ask for a refund.


  11. #11
    Basic Account Holder Mistralee Novitiate

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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    Quote Originally Posted by jbbs View Post
    One last post before i hush as i got to start some uni work in a bit. I was searching google for 'unstarted' charges and found this:

    > Touching out and touching straight back in at the same station doesn't
    > necessarily end and restart a new journey, and there are logical reasons for
    > this. Once a journey that has been joined to another goes beyond the time
    > limit (and that limit is variable dependent on zones crossed) the first part
    > of the journey becomes 'uncompleted' and the latter part 'unstarted'. This
    > is charged as two 'maximum cash fares' and doesn't contributeicon to the daily
    > cap.

    So would it not make more sense to only combine them if the combined
    journey is within the time limit for the overall journey and keep them
    as separate journeys[1] if the combined journey would be over the time
    limit. Also, always treat it as 2 separate journeys rather than
    combining them where someone touches in at A, touches out at B, then
    later touches in again at B travels to A and touches out.
    [1] As long as the time between between each touch in and the next touch
    out is within the time limit.

    --------------------------------------

    I think this could explain both my journeys, but dont quite understand what they mean by 'new journeys' etc, can anyone desribe it in more basic terminology? What do they mean by time limits etc?

    Sorry.

    Thx.
    Hi, I found this thread really interesting because I think I had something quite similar happen to me recently where I touched out then touched in again to start a new journey at the same station. Could you please tell me what the time limit is and if it can affect your second swipe being recorded properly? Thanks!


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

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  13. #13
    Basic Account Holder Mistralee Novitiate

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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    Also, were the customer service people able to see on their systems when a swipe wasn't recorded properly?


  14. #14
    Basic Account Holder Mistralee Novitiate

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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    Could you please let me know as soon as you can if it is recorded when an Oyster reader doesn't read your card properly? Thanks!


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    Another point worth mentioning is that TfL hope to get rid of a lot of ticket windows staff because they 'arnt needed', but of course, when things go wrong, you cant ask a machine for advice....

    Andy


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    Basic Account Holder Buncrana Novitiate

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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    Quote Originally Posted by MBMB11 View Post
    I would always advise if you finish a journey and notice a problem, go straight to a ticket office window where most staff will resolve your journey.
    If Boris gets his way, there soon won't be any ticket office windows...


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    Quote Originally Posted by Buncrana View Post
    If Boris gets his way, there soon won't be any ticket office windows...
    Funny you should say that becuse the other day I had 1.60 on my oyster but couldnt travel coz it need 1.80 on it, simple i thought, ill top it up with 20p, there were 2 ticket mafhines and none would except my 20p and I eventually found a staff member who rubbed my 20p on the wall and it eventually worked and he pointed out that in future there wont be many/any staff to help in situations like that.

    Andy


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    Quote Originally Posted by Mistralee View Post
    Could you please let me know as soon as you can if it is recorded when an Oyster reader doesn't read your card properly? Thanks!
    In short the answer is yes, there are many failure codes that will show up on the Oyster record, for instance 'insufficient SV', 'pass back over', 'invalid card' and many others.

    These will all show a 'Seek Assistance' indication to the traveller.


  19. #19
    Basic Account Holder MikeWh Novitiate

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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    There are two issues at work in this thread. First is the concept of maximum journey times. It used to be 2 hours before National Rail completely joined Oyster in January 2010, but now there is a sliding scale depending on how many zone boundaries are crossed in the course of the journey. Most limits are in excess of two hours, but single zone journeys in the suburbs must be completed within 70 minutes during the daytime Monday to Friday, and the limit goes up from there. The second is the concept of Out-of-station-interchanges, or OSIs for short. They facilitate joining journeys together and thus reducing the cost. Unfortunately they can sometimes have undesirable side effects. Kings Cross is more complicated than most because in addition to the OSIs between the Underground station and both Kings Cross and St Pancras NR stations there is also an OSI between any pair of the three different underground gatelines.


  20. #20
    Basic Account Holder The Urbanite Novitiate

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    Default Re: Oyster card problems - Incomplete journeys

    Quote Originally Posted by jbbs View Post
    Hi, i've found the receipt for my second journey! (joy!!)

    I started my journey from bounds green at 11:43, i arrived back at wood green at 1:17 and it doesnt say "incomplete journey" it says "unstarted" with a charge of 4.30.
    tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14872.aspx

    A journey from Bounds Green (Z3) to Kings Cross (Z1) would have been subject to a time limit of 90 minutes when you travelled.



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