I wrote to Hillesden Securities back in April last year for my CCA. No response so I sent the account in dispute letter. Now suddenly this morning I received a letter saying they were enclosing a true copy of my agreement. Inside were 2 sets of papers one saying 0024 Citi and bmiBaby 30.04.2007 at the top and the other 0031 Citi Cards 02.03.2004.

Although it has my name and address on it does not have my signature or theirs. There is no credit limit mentioned and the older paperwork has no credit limit, no apr or monthly payment details. I took my card approx in 2005 so this agreement would be the relative one to me. They have said they will return my account to their collections team within 14 days./

Where to I go next.

Many thanks

Can you possibly scan it, removing your personal details and post it up here - there are websites like photobucket where you can host it.

Failing that can give you my e-mail addy and get it checked for you.

I know that Citi were fond of sending out old Terms & Conditions, and sticking peoples details at the top of it - i.e. not sending out specifically what has been requested..... it did get them in some hot water with the OFT for a period.

Can you possibly scan it, removing your personal details and post it up here - there are websites like photobucket where you can host it.

 

Failing that can give you my e-mail addy and get it checked for you.

 

I know that Citi were fond of sending out old Terms & Conditions, and sticking peoples details at the top of it - i.e. not sending out specifically what has been requested..... it did get them in some hot water with the OFT for a period.

I will try to scan it in tommorow if I can remember how to do it with Photobucket

Ta

The act and regulations are quite strict with reference to what can fulfill a CCA request.

Terms & Conditions simply won't do, as they are varied terms of agreement, and as par the copy document regulations have to be included in addition to the "executed agreement", the legal definition of executed being signed.

Now again in line with the regulations the creditor can remove your signature, signature box, signature date - but aside from that materially everything else should be an exact duplicate of the text. Original Terms & Conditions should be included if they are referred to in the "executed agreement"

Citi are very fond of not sending out executed agreements, in fact i'd go as far to say that they likely are under orders from the US not to do so.

My opinion is that what you probably have there are two sets of terms & conditions there.... though i'd at least need to see scans to have a look.

If as you say you opened up your account in 2005 it would appear you have a set of T&C near to when you signed up (from 2004) - it's pretty much certain that those T&C would have changed in the period of 9 months plus before you completed the application. The 2007 T&C would likely be from when your account was terminated and sold to Hillesden.

But you certainly seem to be lacking an "executed agreement" which is specifically referenced in s78(1) CCA.

Let me see what you have there and we can go from there on.

Here is the 1st page of the agreement dated 2004. What do you think?

And her is the one dated 2007. I think I opened my account. Certainly not as late as 2007. I have more pages of the doc saved too. Many thanks all

Surprise, surprise Citi are doing their old "Terms & Conditions" trick once more.

This does not complete a s78(1) Consumer Credit Act request, the section specifically states "executed agreement", executed as in legal terminology being a copy of the document you signed.

The creditor is entitled to remove the signature, signature date, signature box, and if needs be retype the document. I can guarantee you even under those circumstances that it would not be a copy of their "Terms & Conditions", even though they seem to have removed that reference from the page.

Here's what they sent me when I applied for a copy of the "executed agreement" which you'll see if very similar.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/telso/citi/245.jpg

This does not complete the request, under the regulations if the original Terms & Conditions are mentioned int he "executed agreement" then they should be enclosed in addition to a copy of the varied Terms & Conditions.

I'm going to suggest complaining to the Office Of Fair Trading as this company seems to continue it's antics.

No doubt Citi will continue to try and enforce the agreement but I would suggest that they haven't given you a copy of what you have requested.

Quite simply from what I have seen I would imagine that Citi UK are under orders from the US not to provide any copies of executed agreements whatsoever, hence these tricks. I managed to get a partial copy of mine when I got trading standards involved.

Thanks. So do I send them a standard letter?

I would suggest sending a letter thanking them for the two sets of "Terms & Conditions" which you received, and look forward to their posting of the "executed agreement" as signed by yourself on application to the account as it was not included within their mailing.

And then just wait for their response.

I guarantee you they will try and fob you off but it will be interesting to know there current response.

Again it will give them a chance to tie themselves in knots and allow you to forward copies to the OFT.

Likelihood though as with all of us is that they'll continue to try and enforce the account as normal, which could have an impact on your credit file etc - so you will have to be prepared to have that happen.

I would suggest sending a letter thanking them for the two sets of "Terms & Conditions" which you received, and look forward to their posting of the "executed agreement" as signed by yourself on application to the account as it was not included within their mailing.

 

And then just wait for their response.

 

I guarantee you they will try and fob you off but it will be interesting to know there current response.

 

Again it will give them a chance to tie themselves in knots and allow you to forward copies to the OFT.

 

Likelihood though as with all of us is that they'll continue to try and enforce the account as normal, which could have an impact on your credit file etc - so you will have to be prepared to have that happen.

Many thanks. Will get a letter off today. As to my credit file I am up to my eyes in debt but have already seen off about £15000 worth due to non production or production of useless CCA's. So I have nothing to lose and all to gain. See my other threads. Thanks again

Essentially they have not produced the "executed agreement" or a document which is an exact copy of the text contained within it.

The OFT has stated that a creditor in default of an s77,78,79 is "not entitled to enforce the agreement AT ALL either with or without a court order", which you would imagine would transpire to be no requests for payment by mail or phone, no updating of a credit file etc. Essentially the agreement is on hold until they properly comply.

That said the banks seem to think they are a law unto themselves and normally run in line with procedure rather than legislation, regulations or any obligations they have under the banking code. But then again your a fool to think that anything other than the bottom line matters to modern day financial institutions.

Essentially they have not produced the "executed agreement" or a document which is an exact copy of the text contained within it.

 

The OFT has stated that a creditor in default of an s77,78,79 is "not entitled to enforce the agreement AT ALL either with or without a court order", which you would imagine would transpire to be no requests for payment by mail or phone, no updating of a credit file etc. Essentially the agreement is on hold until they properly comply.

 

That said the banks seem to think they are a law unto themselves and normally run in line with procedure rather than legislation, regulations or any obligations they have under the banking code. But then again your a fool to think that anything other than the bottom line matters to modern day financial institutions.

yes i agree. But it is up to us little people to fight and i love a good fight. I have written back and said this

Further to your letter of 6.1.2010 enclosing 2 sets of terms and conditions I am still awaiting the executed agreement as requested

I do not believe your compliance with this request is sufficient to comply with the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and therefore I will be contacting the Office of Fair Trading to report this matter.

I will await your early response and will not be responding to your collections team in the meantime.

Is this ok do you think?

What they've sent you is a copy of an agreement, but it is not the "executed agreement" as outlined in s78(1) CCA.

Your letter sounds fine.

They replied this morning and said

"Thank you for your letter of 12.1.10 regarding the above account.

We maintain our stance in our letter of6.1. The true copy of the agreement is sufficient to comply with the Consurmer Credit Act regulations.

Our collections team will contact you in due course to discuss repayment."

Where do I go now?

The s78(1) CCA specifically mentions "executed agreement" i.e. in legalese executed means signed.

Now under regulations they are allowed to remove the signature, signature box, signature date but everything else must remain the same - i.e. identical text to that of the document you signed.

What they have provided you with is a "varied agreement" as in new Terms & Conditions, and a set of Terms & Conditions possibly from the time you opened the account - but it is questionable to whether they matched those at the time of your signing on, I believe we have 9-11 months difference from when you signed on till the date of these.

Therefore I would ascertain that they haven't discharged their obligations for a copy of the "executed agreement", because they haven't sent it.

This has been the argument of many of us on here.

I would suggest getting trading standards involved, as you are legally entitled to a copy of this document, or an exact duplicate of it minus the signature details.

subbing

Sub

I received a letter from DLC this morning ( and I believe they called a few days ago but I dont answer call from any of these companies) saying the following:_

"We have been managing your account since 2007 and you have been making regular payments but the balance is still outstanding.

We must now insist you increase your payments to clear the balance over the shortest possible time.

Please contact one of our negotiators with your revised repayment proposals. Please note we may be able to offer discount for early settlement.

It is important you respond to this letter today, as failure to do so may result in your instalment rights being withdrawn"

I was paying them a small amount last year to get them of my back but ave not paid anything for months due to the invalid CCA they sent. What letter do I need to send or shall I contact the OFT or Trading Standards?

At a guess I would say that they are acting as an agent on behalf of Citi.

They have assumed the position of managing your account as you likely have said you would pay funds through them, they are taking their cut and passing the rest onto Citi.

If the account has not been assigned to them, i.e. you have not received a "Notice Of Assignment" transferring all rights and obligations to DLC, then they are a DCA without no rights to the agreement -- you don't have to pay them a penny, they cannot commence and shouldn't be threatening legal action as they don't own the account. (That said there are still rights that Citi could exert).

What I would suggest is getting in touch with your local Trading Standards department.

Trading Standards Institute - Home page

State that you've requested a copy of the signed executed agreement, a document to which you are legally entitled, however the company has not complied. And politely request their assistance in obtaining a copy.

Technically they would have complied by sending you a copy of the T&C you received -- by virtue of the Manchester Test Case guidance. However if there is no dates on the T&C it's hard to ascertain whether these truely are your T&C.

It's likely that before 2006 agreements could have issues with them, but obviously without seeing the document you signed that is hard to ascertain, and something of a gamble.

Due to family pressures I have not yet contact the Trading Standards. However this morning DLC called again about this debt. I told them I would not speak to them as per previous calls and wondered what letter to send them now. I am dedicating a day to debts tommorow so will send the Trading Standards. Lucky I come on here and record my correspondence as my hard drive crashed a few months ago and I lost all comunications.

I am bumping this up as DLC called again today and I am not sure how to respond.

Hang up is the 2nd best way.

Truecall is the best way if you can afford it.

M1

As mentioned briefly, if the Agreement has been 'varied' since the account has been opened, i.e. interest rates have incresed on the account, then they have to provide terms and conditions for each variation plus the original CCA.

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2009/3417.html

Carey & others v HSBC (2009)

After some years I had a letter from DLC concerning the above account.

They keep writing and in August last year and i responded to say it is statute barred.

They wrote back to say that was wrong as i had paid a payment to them on 24.5.2010.

They have been writing every month since offering various discounts

I recieved a letter yesterday offering 75% discount and that my account would show as partially satisfied.

Firstly it does not show on my credit file anyway,

secondly why only partially satisfied surely full and final settlement means they write the rest off

and lastly they never sent a proper agreement when asked.

How do I proceed.

If it's not on your credit file then it's likely statute barred.

No doubt they are being naughty and trying to coax some money out of you, even though it's not due.....

Getting a copy of my agreement out of Citi was like getting blood out of a stone, but I got one, and surprise surprise it was nowhere near enforceable. Hence why Citi sold off a lot of their older accounts.