Thread: PPI Concerns

Have moved you into the PPI forums

Originally Posted by questioner

I am unsure about a few points concerning PPI, which seems a grey area. I would appreciate help on these points.
1) Some CAG posters seem to believe that reclaiming PPI is a dangerous admission of a disputed debt and I bet the ’not very helpful’ at fos would support this softer stance.However, others take the opinion that the PPI should be reclaimed as it helps to make a debt more unenforceable as a s18 multiple loan, meaning terms on the agreement are NOT properly stated. ( the aim of reclaiming PPI is to recover monies obtained from the sale of a product which was not fit for purpose, most likely would not offer the cover for the life of the loan etc, was expensive compared to other companies, sold unfairly in the eyes of the Competition Commissioner, was never fully explained to the consumer/customer, in some cases added on without the consumer being aware it was added on, The list is endless. )

2) If one has say a disputed account for say 10 thousand quid but only a fraction has been paid off – then are we claiming only for the small percentage of PPI on the fraction that has been paid off or THE WHOLE LOT AS STATED ON THE AGREEMENT ? ( The claim is for any monies due that have been paid out when the PPI has been deemed to have been mis-sold by either the FOS or a Court. The monies due would be premiums paid inlcuding any interest added and a statutory 8% interest. You would be unlikely to receive the full single premium back but once PPI is cancelled you should receive an appropriate rebate. )

I only ask as I was thinking about one account I am currently fighting. It was originally for 18k but payments had brought it down to 13k. However on the CCA docs (which we are disputing as being the wrong agreement number anyway in this case) the whole PPI comes to about 5K

Not sure how this works



AND I SHOULD ADD THE ALL MY ACCOUNTS ARE IN DISPUTE DUE TO NO OR IMPROPER CCA REQESTSED DOCUMENTATION. payment stopped to these accounts back in summer. ( your choice on this I cannot advise you on this point )


If I recall correctly the Martin Lewis site just suggested that one bangs in a misselling claim letter and lets them do the calculations – but I may be wrong. ( they will do the calculations if you are not happy with the figures ask them for a full Breakdown as to how they arrive at their figures, and ask for it in detail )

For me – I currently see PPI as a lever to get aggressive creditors to potentially drop a file, although I have not yet proved this to myself. (Your choice my view on PPI was to recover monies from a product that was clearly mis-sold and of no use to me)

PPI amounts may come to more than a debt is worth at times So this can apparently be useful or so I am informed. ( Please let CAG know who informed you )

I just need to get a SIMPLE LAYMEN'S handle on all this lot so I can see what I am doing for when I SAR more sharks. I like to be in control of the shots.



HELPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!

Please read up on the stickies at the top of the forum, Lots of useful information to help you out.

PPI - Some Notes for Claimants..

THIS LINK IS IMPORTANT TO YOU ON RECLAIMING IT IS FROM 2001 FROM THE FOS
loan payment protection insurance and a quote from this link...

Quote:
When determining whether a policy is suitable, a seller – whether a lender or an agent for the insurer – must obviously take into consideration any information the prospective policyholder volunteers. However, we do not consider the seller’s duty is limited simply to recording what the borrower discloses. It is only by asking questions that the seller can properly determine suitability. These questions cannot cover every aspect of a borrower’s personal position and should not be expected to do so. To paraphrase the ABI Statement, only those matters deemed to be relevant by the insurer should be the subject of questions.
Another Useful article on Single Premium PPI and why the FSA say it was unfair.
http://www.moneymadeclear.fsa.go v.uk...insurance.html
Payment protection insurance (PPI) – Refunds of single premiums : FSA Money made clear – Unfair contracts

For claims before 2005 and the FSA ruling from which campaign
How to tell if you’ve been mis-sold PPI

Quick check: were you mis-sold? - How to tell if you’ve been mis-sold PPI

Another useful site to help you reclaim missold PPI UPDATED 16 JUN 08
Reclaim your PPI premiums - payment protection insurance | This is Money

This is a little snippet from the above link....

Can I reclaim on any PPI policy?
Your claim for compensation is dependent on when you took the insurance. PPI sales only came under the jurisdiction of the FSA on 14 January 2005. Any sales made before then are not covered by the latest rules.
However, it may still be worth complaining to your lender if you feel you have been mis-sold. If you bought before January 2005 it is likely that they will have been covered by a previous regime of rules. This means that the Financial Ombudsman Service will be able to consider these complaints. If you took PPI after January 2005, your claim is subject to the latest rules.

Another link from PPI thread back in 2007
Can I complain about old PPI policy? | This is Money

OK My view is PPI can be useful if you have credit (Loan/Mortgage/Credit card etc) It is a way to be able to repay your monthly payments if you suddenly find you are incapacitated and unable to work therefore short of cash to meet the repayments.

However PPI has also been widely mis-sold by a number of financial institutions and this is borne out by the large fines imposed by the Financial Services Authority.

Claiming PPI back is not a way to put a debt into dispute although some may disagree. Indeed some have put the claims for mis-sold PPI up a level to claim documentation is invalid and therefore the Credit Agreement is unenforceable. This area is open to a lot of debate and indeed a lot of the documentation provided by banks etc is in fact questionable as to its legallity in law. This is the subject of other forums on the CAG website.

If you have an agreement but believe PPI was mis-sold for whatever reason and there are many. (Student, Unemployed, Self employed, Part time worker, Suffer from Pre existing medical conditions, Single premium payment PPI used, PPI only covers first five years of a ten year loan, etc etc) Then you should claim that the PPI was mis-sold and ask for your money back. (PPI is available elsewhere at a much cheaper rate than you will have received from your creditor)

If you go down the road of unenforceable agreements or multiple agreements you should see these forums.

Is My Agreement Enforceable - Useful

Multiple agreements falling within section 18 CCA 1974

My own claims were on the grounds of Pre existing medical conditions which I was never asked about.

The creditor has a duty to ensure the product being sold is fit for purpose for you as an individual. They should complete a customer duty of care/Needs and wants questionnaire to ensure the product they are selling (at a very high price) is suitable to you.

Quite often this was not done as the sales advisor was purely focused on the bonus due from selling PPI with the loan.

So not an easy answer PPI is a complex subject but IMO it has been mis-sold to the unsuspecting public to the tune of £xx billons. The lid is off the can of worms and the companies are having to pay back the money.

You should not however IMO try to use PPI as a means in its own to try to get debts written off. If the paperwork is dodgy then seek advice, if the PPI was in your own opinion mis-sold claim it back with interest. The choice of the course of action is yours FOS generally successful up to 90%.

I am not sure about the Court success rate.

If you go to the FOS and your complaint is not upheld you still retain the Court option but if you got to Court and lose you can not then go to the FOS.

Long post but PPI is not an easy subject and there are no simple laymens terms to satisfy all.

Hello gezwee,

can you please start a new thread on this it makes it easier to follow than getting mixed up with other threads..

just click this link to start a new thread on the subject.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...ewthread&f=111

give it a suitable title and away you go

aa

PPI amounts may come to more than a debt is worth at times So this can apparently be useful or so I am informed. ( Please let CAG know who informed you )

aa, I might have been responsible for this.. I did wonder if, having worked out the value, plus interest of mis sold PPI , and it came to more than the debt outstanding and claimed by the creditor. If the OP could perhaps bargain the closure of the file.

alanalana

Many thanks for the kind advice which I shall study.

I have studied enforcability of CCA docs for a long times and I am quite aware of what are properly executed docs not. I have several accounts that have PPI on yet no CCA docs that are enforcable.

Logic dictates that I deal with both issues here although I have informed all sharks many times that they have no proper docs.

I knocked up this letter to try and deal with the issues...

---------

PPI RECLAMATION AND ALLEGED DEBT CLOSURE REQUEST
Dear sir/madam

Following advice for my consumer law expert I can make the following comments.
I note that you have claimed all though this lengthy correspondence that you believe I owe you money.
You have however failed to comply with my numerous reasonable and lawful requests to furnish me with a true copy of the alleged agreement that both of us would legally require for authentication in any potential litigation. Your ongoing obstructive activity herein has been noted for possible future use.
However, I notice that you have been applying a substantial PPI amount each month to the statements that you have provided in response to my Subject access request.

As you are unable to provide a compliant agreement document to prove you have a cause of action then the amount you allege I owe is almost certainly incorrect, due to a mis sold PPI.
PPI was missold to me for several reasons, which include the following:
-----------------
I was given no proper advice about what PPI actually meant and its implications and I felt pressurised into buying the insurance cover, believing I would not secure credit without taking on the additional and very expensive PPI.
I genuinely had no idea what PPI was at the time it was added and nothing was explained to me that I could understand. In effect I was led to believe that PPI was a compulsory element herein that one had to say yes to. In fact I have serious doubts that I ever even said yes to PPI believing that any tick box on any application form may have been ticked already, prior to me seeing this.
I was also partially/wholly self employed at the time and would not have required this costly PPI policy. This matter was not explained to me.
It was not made understandable to me that the PPI policy was optional
The implication I was given was that I was compelled to take out the PPI policy to meet the criteria for the main application so it could be processed The impression I was given by the seller was that failing to agree with PPI would invalidate the main application.
I was not informed that I could obtain cheaper alternative PPI elsewhere, if required either.
I have only recently discovered that I have been making PPI payments and I was unaware of what this most deceptive issue entailed
The PPI is only for one account holder yet the main application is a joint one, which means that cover is only partial. This is unfair and quite worthless.
All in all, the PPI policy was clearly missold to me due to me for the above reasons.
The absence of a fully acquiescent executed agreement, holding the correctly prescribed terms and conditions within its four quarters means your company has visibly breached OFT regulations, via unfair collection activities, and ultimately had no legal right to charge interest or undertake any other activities that a fully complaint agreement would have permitted you to do.
Such a fundamental absence of critical documentation also means that the alleged agreement is legally unenforceable as you will be fully aware.
This now leaves your company in an exceedingly problematic position for you have pursued an alleged agreement knowing that the necessary legally required documentation is unavailable to enforce it. You have also added PPI which was an addition that I would never have agreed to if the matter had been properly explained to me initially.
In light of the above, whilst I acknowledged no debt whatsoever to you I am advised that fair compensation is due to me for PPI that has been improperly extracted from me in this instance. I therefore include a statement (based on the Subject access request) of the amount that you should be compensating me with regarding PPI.
Kindly note: The lack of any fully compliant executed agreement in this instance has no bearing on the amount of PPI that you have erroneously taken from me. Furthermore, such basic deficiency of requested agreement material in fact only adds to the entire unenforceability of any alleged agreement issue.

This type of problem has recently been highlighted in several test cases presented in the press including one report in which a county court judge ruled “£8,000 worth of credit card debt is unrecoverable due to the ‘unfair’ way in which PPI was sold with the product. “

I am appalled by the way you have prolonged this regrettable issue.

I now look forward to receiving compliance regarded the following items from you.

1)Unequivocal confirmation that the alleged agreement has been finally closed



2)Full compensation of missold PPI funds that has been wrongly extracted from me

I have been prepared to pay any genuinely owed debts and this issue has never been in doubt. However, I am questioning the observance with the law as to the alleged agreement herein.

I am also seriously questioning the amount your company claim that I owe and I now have evidence, via the Subject Access Request data, that the alleged and unenforceable agreement that you are trying to feign as being well-founded does in fact have a missold PPI policy attached to it.

Failure to comply with my reasonable requests may force me to make complains to the relevant authorities about your gratuitous practices and unfair reluctance to comply.

Kindly give this matter your due diligence and response within 14 days.


----------

I figure that there may be other issues as to why PPI was missold to me so any pointers on the above would be MUCHO appreciated..



Thanks

Q

Will have a read of this and report back

Originally Posted by citizenB

Will have a read of this and report back

CB many thanks for help is much apreciated.

I simply wish to have a good letter at hand for when the SARs arrive..

The PPI issue has put a new slant on events for me.

IMO a good letter.

I now see where you're coming from with the first post.
You could in your SAR specifically ask them to produce the 'demands and needs' questionnaire. This should be a set of questions to be asked for each sale of PPI, to ensure the product is suitable for the customer.

Good luck

Originally Posted by Jan4a

I have reclaimed my PPI and they have offered it back. I am now waiting to see if they ask me to sign a new (enforceable) CCA for the rest of the loan before I get my PPI money. Mine was 04.

Curious about your thread as you've gone a different route plus I still have Barclaycard to go!

Best of luck
My approach is simply to say


Dear shark

You have no enforceable agreement documentation, that I has been requesting since Kind Harold was on the throne. However, SAR data proves that you have extracted missold PPI from me. Therefore you owe me money back.
Simple!
I have many disputes on the go like this.

I am now waiting to see if they ask me to sign a new (enforceable) CCA for the rest of the loan before I get my PPI money.

I see - I think then you would be in a stalemate sitation with them hunting a loan them could never get back and you having to halt the PPI claim. Alternatively, perhaps you could then at that stage escalate your PPI complaint to the authorities if they demand you sign anything new which may be unlawful - but you would need to check that one out. To me such a move would seem to be Unfair practice as you/they have no enforcable agreement BUT you can prove they have whipped the PPI from under your nose. My money would therefore be on you.

Here you go Q... I am not sure of your letter heading.. you might want to reword the highlighted portion.

PPI RECLAMATION AND ALLEGED DEBT CLOSURE REQUEST



Dear Sir/Madam

Following advice from a consumer law expert I would like to make the following observations:
We have been actively engaged in lengthy correspondence wherein you claim that I owe you money.
You have however, failed to comply with numerous lawful requests from myself to provide me with a true copy of the alleged agreement to which you say I am a signatory and which would be required to be in your possession should you decide to proceed to litigation.
Your continued reluctance to provide this document not only gives cause for concern, but will be brought to the attention of any court should you decide to go that route.
However, in response to a recent Subject access request, made under the Data Protection Act 1998, statements were provided. It is noticed that you have been applying a substantial PPI amount each month to those statements.

As you are unable to provide a compliant agreement to prove you have a cause of action then the amount you allege I owe is almost certainly incorrect, due to mis sold PPI.


PPI was mis sold to me for several reasons, which include the following:

I was given no proper advice as to what PPI actually meant and its implications and I felt pressurised into buying the insurance cover, believing I would not secure credit without taking on the additional and very expensive PPI.


I genuinely had no idea what PPI was at the time it was added and nothing was explained to me that I could understand. In effect I was led to believe that PPI was a compulsory element that one had to say yes to. In fact I have serious doubts that I ever even said yes to PPI believing that any tick box on any application form may have been ticked already, prior to me seeing this.


I was also partially/wholly self employed at the time and would not have required this costly PPI policy. This matter was not explained to me.


It was not made understandable to me that the PPI policy was an optional product.
The implication I was given was that I was compelled to take out the PPI policy to meet the criteria for the main application so it could be processed. The impression I was given by the seller was that failing to agree with PPI would invalidate the main application.


I was not informed that I could obtain cheaper alternative PPI elsewhere, if required either.


I have only recently discovered that I have been making PPI payments and I was unaware of what this most deceptive issue entailed


The PPI is only for one account holder yet the main application is a joint one, which means that cover is only partial. This is unfair and quite worthless.


All in all, the PPI policy was clearly mis sold to me due to me for the above reasons.


The absence of a fully acquiescent executed agreement, holding the correctly prescribed terms and conditions within its four corners means your company has visibly breached OFT regulations, via unfair collection activities, and ultimately had no legal right to charge interest or undertake any other activities that a fully complaint agreement would have permitted you to do.


Such a fundamental absence of critical documentation also means that the alleged agreement is legally unenforceable as you will be fully aware.


This now leaves your company in an exceedingly problematic position; you have pursued an alleged agreement knowing that the necessary legally required documentation is unavailable to enforce it. You have also added PPI which was an addition that I would never have agreed to if the matter had been properly explained to me initially.


In light of the above, whilst I acknowledged no debt whatsoever to you I am advised that fair compensation is due to me for PPI that has been improperly extracted from me in this instance. I therefore include a statement (based on the Subject access request) of the amount that you should be compensating me with regarding PPI.


Kindly note: The lack of any fully compliant executed agreement in this instance has no bearing on the amount of PPI that you have erroneously taken from me. Furthermore, such basic deficiency of requested agreement material in fact only, adds to the entire unenforceability of any alleged agreement issue.

This type of problem has recently been highlighted in several test cases presented in the press including one report in which a county court judge ruled “£8,000 worth of credit card debt is unrecoverable due to the ‘unfair’ way in which PPI was sold with the product. “

I am appalled by the way you have prolonged this regrettable issue.

I now look forward to receiving compliance regarded the following items from you.

1) Unequivocal confirmation that the alleged agreement has been finally closed



2)Full compensation of mis sold PPI funds that has been wrongly extracted from me

I have been prepared to pay any genuinely owed debts and this issue has never been in doubt. However, I am questioning the observance with the law as to the alleged agreement herein.

I am also seriously questioning the amount your company claim that I owe and I now have evidence, via the Subject Access Request data, that the alleged and unenforceable agreement that you are trying to feign as being well-founded does in fact have a mis sold PPI policy attached to it.

Failure to comply with my reasonable requests may force me to make complains to the relevant authorities about your gratuitous practices and unfair reluctance to comply.

Kindly give this matter your due diligence and response within 14 days.

Originally Posted by Jan4a

I have reclaimed my PPI and they have offered it back. I am now waiting to see if they ask me to sign a new (enforceable) CCA for the rest of the loan before I get my PPI money. Mine was 04.

Curious about your thread as you've gone a different route plus I still have Barclaycard to go!

What ever you do please do not be caught in the new agreement trap.

Some banks will offer the PPI refund as long as you sign up to a new agreement. This agreement will undoubtedly be for the remaining balance minus the PPI but will most probably be over the same term or longer with a higher APR thereby keeping you on the debt hook. They should rebate the PPI and refund the payments you have made and adjust the loan to keep the payments reduced over the remaining period of the loan at the same rate of APR as the original loan.

Please do not sign any new agreements let the bank adjust the existing one to show no PPI, A refund of PPI premiums paid plus 8% interest, the loan period remains the same as does the APR. In short this is a TRAP.

Just a short hijack with apologies to questioner.