Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

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BAILIFFS - The Law and Your Rights

Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.

The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.

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  1. #1
    Basic Account Holder Roxysiren Novitiate

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    Default Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    Can anyone advise please

    Road tax expired on 31/8 and went to the car at 8.10am on 1/9 to put the new tax disc on (purchased on 19 Aug) to find a fixed penalty notice had been issued at 8.00am citing "Failure to Display valid tax".

    As the the new disc can't be displayed before it becomes valid ie, the first of the month, then if we had put it on the car the night before then that could also be classed as "invalid".

    The facts are............

    1. I live in Edinburgh and the fixed penalty notice was issued by "Lothian & Borders" police but not by a police officer, a traffic warden of the old school "yellow band on hat variety"(as opposed to a "Council/Private Parking enforcement officer.)

    2. The new tax disc was purchased over the counter at my local Post Office so the "5 days" rule does not apply as that only applies to road tax purchased online, by post or telephone.

    3. The car was parked on the roadway, not on a drive.

    My OH is not happy and says we should appeal and I appreciate that technically "failure to display" is correct so am tempted just to pay and leave it at that.

    We live in a quiet residential street which is closed at one end with no through traffic. It is very narrow and on street parking is free which attracts cars from nearby areas which have controlled parking, that is why you can't always get a space near the house. I say this because it's not a street that usually attracts traffic wardens, I can't recall the last time I saw one!

    It seems unfair that by supporting my local post office and buying the road tax in person I don't get the extra advantage of those buying online or by telephone.

    I would hate to have a failed appeal and end up paying out more than the £60 penalty already issued but I don't know these things work?

    Do you pay the penalty then appeal or if you don't pay does it go to court automatically?

    My question is should I put this down to experience or it be worth appealing the fine?

    Thanks in advance


  2. #2
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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    I would appeal on the basis that you had purchased a VED and it seems unreasonable to serve you a pcnicon basd on that timing. I am not sure how, in law, this officially stands, but I can't see how anyone would uphold it in these circumstances.

    On your point though, I am not sure why you think you can't display your new disk immediately. The disk only shows an "end date", not a "start date". I always install a new disk immediately on purchase, that way if a CEO observes it, I am showing a valid VED within date and if I go through a ANPR camera it is checking against the database, not "looking" at my disk. In future, if I were you, stick in the screen as soon as you get it.


  3. #3
    Basic Account Holder StrawDog Novitiate

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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    Hi Roxysiren,

    A couple of corrections first - your new tax disc was valid from the day you bought it & could have been displayed at anytime up to the end of the month. There is no requirement to wait for the 1st day of the following month. With respect, you would not be expected to wait up until midnight of the last day of the month to affix the new disc.
    Also paying for a tax disc online/telephone does not afford any advantages over doing so at a post office. There is no '5 day rule.' This is merely the period specified in receiving the disc following application.

    Yes you have committed an offence in failing to display but by any stretch of the imgination to issue you with a FPN under the circumstances described is an extremely harsh & unreasonable decision on the part of the traffic warden.
    I would have no hesitation in appealing, you have nothing to lose in doing so - after all they can only say no. Even then I personally would risk a hearing in court as I don't believe the PF would allow it to get that far.
    Having said that, these are only my opinions - any action you take is of course your decision.
    Appeal the FPN & see what develops.

    Good Luck!


  4. #4
    Basic Account Holder StrawDog Novitiate

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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    Sorry crem, we crossed in the post - you posted yours as I was preparing mine.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    There is no '5 day rule.' This is merely the period specified in receiving the disc following application.

    There is a "5 day rule" meaning if you purchase online upto and including the last day of the month, you are allowed the 1st 5 days of the month to be displaying your old invalid disk whilst awaiting the arrival of your new disk by post. If you are issued an FPN during that time, evidence that you have purchased online will negate the FPN


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    Crem, you are wrong there is no such thing, no grace period for displaying road tax no matter when you purchased it.
    Roxysiren no harm in appealing, you never know your luck, it is the ones that dont pay at all they are after.


  7. #7
    Basic Account Holder heliosfa Informative heliosfa Informative heliosfa Informative heliosfa Informative

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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    Quote Originally Posted by raydetinu View Post
    Crem, you are wrong there is no such thing, no grace period for displaying road tax no matter when you purchased it.
    Roxysiren no harm in appealing, you never know your luck, it is the ones that dont pay at all they are after.
    Sorry Raydetinu, you are incorrect:

    Quote Originally Posted by DirectGov
    If you prefer to tax in the last few days of the month, there is now an exemption from the offence of not displaying a tax disc. This exemption covers the first five working days of the month and allows time for the new disc to arrive in the post.
    from Tax your vehicle online or by phone : Directgov - Motoring


    and
    Quote Originally Posted by Department for Transport
    The first of the changes has come about because DVLA has found that towards the end of the month, many motorists taxing their vehicle online or by phone do not complete the transaction when they realise that their tax disc may not be received in time for the 1st of the following month. As a result, from the 1st of September 2008, those buying their vehicle tax online, by phone or by post will be able to legally continue to drive their vehicles for up to 5 days while they wait for their new tax disc to arrive. This will only apply where the new tax disc has been applied for before the current one expires and motorists should continue to display the expired disc on their vehicle, until the new one arrives. This will be of great benefit to those motorists who have to leave buying their tax disc until the last day of the month, because they are waiting to be paid. They can now still do that, but also get the benefits of taxing online, by phone or by post.
    from DVLA ? Improved Customer Service


    It was implemented as an incentive to get people purchasing online I believe.

    H

    I am not a lawyer - I'm an Engineer with an interest in law. Advice is given with out prejudice and is my opinion on the information I have been provided with based on my experience, understanding and interpritation of law. If you are in any doubt please seek the advice of a qualified and insured legal professional.

    Victories:
    Abbey (OH) - £680 ..... Barclaycard (OH) - £2200 ..... MBNA (OH) - £1800 ..... Shop Direct (OH) - £220

    Brunell Franklin (a.k.a. Conkers) - Out of "contract" & no charge

    In Progress:
    MBNA (OH) - PPI & bad default with premature termination
    Capital One (OH) - ~£800 Penalty Charges
    Suzuki Finance/Blackhorse (OH) - Commission, Unlawful removal, PPI, Charges

    A Lightbulb Shop - "loss of bargain"

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    Does seem I am wrong applogies all round; also found this!
    What About The 14 Days Grace?

    If your vehicle licence has expired there is an understanding that you may continue to use the vehicle for up to 14 days. However you must apply for a new licence within the 14 day period and licence it from the expiry date of the previous licence. If proof that a complete application has been received at DVA, before taking a vehicle on the road, you will not be penalised for driving without a current Vehicle Licence or for failing to display one.
    The 14 days period of grace is a concession. In law a current licence must be displayed at all times when the vehicle is on the road.


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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    Quote Originally Posted by raydetinu View Post
    Does seem I am wrong applogies all round; also found this!
    What About The 14 Days Grace?
    That is why we have these discussions in an open forum rather than private messages so that we can all see the posts and comment on, or correct statements, where we feel necessary.

    We all learn something new on these boards every day (well I do anyway) so I don't see that you have anything to appoligise for raydetinu


  10. #10
    Basic Account Holder heliosfa Informative heliosfa Informative heliosfa Informative heliosfa Informative

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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    Quote Originally Posted by crem View Post
    That is why we have these discussions in an open forum rather than private messages so that we can all see the posts and comment on, or correct statements, where we feel necessary.

    We all learn something new on these boards every day (well I do anyway) so I don't see that you have anything to appoligise for raydetinu
    I agree with this, I have been wrong several times and the beauty of an open forum is that there is usually someone to critique the advice given!


    As for the OP, i'd be contesting this as you clearly had the tax disk and you replaced the old one with the new one ON THE DAY the new one started.

    It sounds to me like some trafficwarden/etc. trying to make a quick catch to up their stats/commission/other incentive!

    H

    I am not a lawyer - I'm an Engineer with an interest in law. Advice is given with out prejudice and is my opinion on the information I have been provided with based on my experience, understanding and interpritation of law. If you are in any doubt please seek the advice of a qualified and insured legal professional.

    Victories:
    Abbey (OH) - £680 ..... Barclaycard (OH) - £2200 ..... MBNA (OH) - £1800 ..... Shop Direct (OH) - £220

    Brunell Franklin (a.k.a. Conkers) - Out of "contract" & no charge

    In Progress:
    MBNA (OH) - PPI & bad default with premature termination
    Capital One (OH) - ~£800 Penalty Charges
    Suzuki Finance/Blackhorse (OH) - Commission, Unlawful removal, PPI, Charges

    A Lightbulb Shop - "loss of bargain"

    If i've helped, please feel free to hit the star
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  11. #11
    Basic Account Holder Roxysiren Novitiate

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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    Thank you all for your replies

    Until this happened I have never considered displaying two discs at the same time, or to display the new one before the old one expires. Reading the information on the DVLA website that still appears to be incorrect:-

    If your vehicle is taxed
    You can apply from the 5th day of the month in which your current tax
    disc runs out. Your new tax disc will come into force on the first day of

    the next month and you should not display it on your vehicle until then.

    It seems unfair that by supporting my local post office and buying the road tax in person I don't get the extra advantage of those buying online or by telephone if they happen to still be waiting for the new disc to arrive in the first few days of the month when technically they too are displaying an invalid tax disc.

    The "14 Days Grace" article posted by raydetinu seems to be from Ireland so would not apply to Edinburgh.

    I does seem I have suffered at the hands of an over zealous warden and feel I should appeal but am concerned if I failed that I would end up paying out more than the amount of the original penalty.

    I am unsure if I appeal by sending a letter to the warden department or do I have to go directly to a court case.

    Thanks





  12. #12
    Basic Account Holder heliosfa Informative heliosfa Informative heliosfa Informative heliosfa Informative

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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    Quote Originally Posted by Roxysiren View Post
    The "14 Days Grace" article posted by raydetinu seems to be from Ireland so would not apply to Edinburgh.

    I does seem I have suffered at the hands of an over zealous warden and feel I should appeal but am concerned if I failed that I would end up paying out more than the amount of the original penalty.

    I am unsure if I appeal by sending a letter to the warden department or do I have to go directly to a court case.

    Thanks


    The "14 day grace" period does appliy to England / Scotland, but as has been stated it is a courtesy rather than anything. You still are not allowed to use a vehicle without tax or a valid disc on the road.

    Personally, I would be appealing this AND involving the local press.

    H

    I am not a lawyer - I'm an Engineer with an interest in law. Advice is given with out prejudice and is my opinion on the information I have been provided with based on my experience, understanding and interpritation of law. If you are in any doubt please seek the advice of a qualified and insured legal professional.

    Victories:
    Abbey (OH) - £680 ..... Barclaycard (OH) - £2200 ..... MBNA (OH) - £1800 ..... Shop Direct (OH) - £220

    Brunell Franklin (a.k.a. Conkers) - Out of "contract" & no charge

    In Progress:
    MBNA (OH) - PPI & bad default with premature termination
    Capital One (OH) - ~£800 Penalty Charges
    Suzuki Finance/Blackhorse (OH) - Commission, Unlawful removal, PPI, Charges

    A Lightbulb Shop - "loss of bargain"

    If i've helped, please feel free to hit the star
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    If I were you there is no way I would take this FPN and "learn by it" or whatever.

    I would submit an appeal asking for it to be revoked immediately and include the DVLA webpage showing that you shouldn't display it before it becomes valid. I would include proof of purchase and a photocopy of the VED disk as well. I cannot see any way that an adjudicator would support the issue of this fine.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    Seeing as I started this, is there room on that naughty stool for two reydetinu?
    Profuse apologies all round from me also & thanks crem & heliosfa for putting the record straight. This has come as a surprise to me & as you say crem, just goes to show you do learn something new every day.

    Ok then, but how is this exemption/concession working out in practice?
    How are wardens differentiating between vehicles displaying an expired VEL where a renewal has been purchased on line etc for one, and another where the renewal has been purchased at a post office? Are there any guidelines/codes of practice operating here?

    It appears the OP would have received a FPN irrespective of the method used in purchasing the tax disc. I'm sure the traffic warden neither knew, checked nor cared whether a current VEL was in force, (albeit not displayed) nevermind how it was purchased.

    What is the point of the exemption for tax purchased online etc, if the motoring public still run the risk of being issued with a FPN a second into the 1st day of the new month by over zealous wardens. Ok, the FPN can be quashed on appeal but what a cumbersome unnecessary hassle & inconvenience for all concerned.
    If you purchase a tax disc online/by phone/by post & are issued with an FPN within the exempt period, it seems to me you may just as well totally ignoreicon it as no prosecution should follow anyway - how many however would be willing to take that chance?

    I now also understand & echo the OP's concerns at the discriminatory unfairness of this two-tier unjust system insofar as it relates to those purchasing tax discs at a post office.

    A can buy his/her tax on line at the end of the month, display an expired disc with impunity up to 7 days into the new month & be exempt from prosecution.
    B renews his/her tax disc half-way thro' the month of expiry at a post office, fails to display it on the 1st day of the new month for whatever reason, & is immediately penalised & liable for a £60 penalty. Just doesn't seem right somehow.

    Roxysiren, I would most definately appeal -double underlined.


  15. #15
    Basic Account Holder BoardinBob Novitiate

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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    Quote Originally Posted by crem View Post

    On your point though, I am not sure why you think you can't display your new disk immediately. The disk only shows an "end date", not a "start date". I always install a new disk immediately on purchase, that way if a CEO observes it, I am showing a valid VED within date and if I go through a ANPR camera it is checking against the database, not "looking" at my disk. In future, if I were you, stick in the screen as soon as you get it.
    Hmmm. You learn something new every day as I didn't think that was possible. Imagine the following scenario.

    You buy a car Jan 1st with no VED disc.

    You purchase 12 months of VED on lets say the 16th of January.

    The end date on the disc is January 31st of the following year.

    So you're basically saying you can display that disc immediately which ultimately gives you 12.5 months of VED for the price of 12????


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    you will pay from the first day of the current month, as there is no valid VED , system wont allow you to buy in advance, unless there is a current VED

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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    As Joe Public, we cannot pay for a disk to start 1/2 way through a month, so as kiptower says, you would loose 1/2 a month if you bought it on the 16th rather than gaining 1/2 a month.

    The exception to this is if you buy a new car on say the 25th, the dealership are able to pay for the additional days on a pro rata basis so that you new disk will run to the end of the next full month (next year)


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    Given the wave of selective postal strikes sweeping the country with reports of millions of letters stacked-up & people not having received mail for 10 days, I can't help but think of how this is affecting those who have applied online/by phone/by post to renew their tax & are still awaiting delivery of their discs. The DVLA exemption only allows for 5 working days to continue to display the expired VEL.
    Can we trust the system to allow for the effects of the strikes & the wardens of this country (particularly in Edinburgh) to be sensible about this & perform the necessary checks before issuing FPNs?



  19. #19
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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    Hi everyone!

    Personally I find it incrediblly ridiculous that any official in their right mind would issue a ticket at 8am the morning after the old disc expired! Was the old disc still displayed at the time? I think any court would laugh this out the door if it gets that far but I think when you appeal it (as you most certainly should), then it wont.

    Regards, Sam


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Fixed Penalty Notice - Failure To Display Tax Disc

    Quote Originally Posted by sailor sam View Post
    Hi everyone!

    Personally I find it incrediblly ridiculous that any official in their right mind would issue a ticket at 8am the morning after the old disc expired! Was the old disc still displayed at the time? I think any court would laugh this out the door if it gets that far but I think when you appeal it (as you most certainly should), then it wont.

    Regards, Sam

    Yes, the old disc was still displayed.

    I have sent off my rquest for cancellation of the FPN and will report back on the outcome when I know.

    Thank you all for your comments and advice and hopefully other people will find it helpful should they search with a similar question.





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