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I'm a long time lurker, and hearing of all the success on here, I thought I would challenge HSBC on my loan agreement!
I've recently switched my bank account from them because like a lot of people right now, I was in a bit of financial trouble recently, and they decided to "help" by charging me extortionate fees for going overdrawn and sending threatening letters. I'm now with Alliance and Leicester who are like a breath of fresh air!
Anyway, I requested a copy of my agreement using the template on this forum, on the 14th of July. They responded with a letter on the 23rd of July stating that they will not respond to my request as I did not sign the letter. I've noticed some other people also received this.
Following that, I sent a letter on the 28th of July using another template stating that they did not need my signature for proof etc.
Since then they have not replied. A payment was due to come out 2 days ago, but I cancelled the direct debit when I switched accounts. The only contact I have had from them are letters with a direct debit form saying I need to reinstate my direct debit, and about 10 phone calls a day from an 0800 number. I have answered a few times and only heard silence.
My question is, what do I do next? I know there is a template letter floating around here somewhere starting with something along the lines of "I do not recognise any debt to your company".
Do I send this now, or just wait to see what happens? Of course they have gone well over the 12+2 days allowed to supply a copy of my agreement.
Sorry for such a long post, and thanks to everyone
Hi Everyone, after sending the letter that Sam suggested (thanks again!), I finally received a response, and to be honest, it has surprised me no end! I'll write the gist of it here as I don't have a scanner.
Dear Mr ****
Re: Loan Agreement: ******
We write further to your previous letters regarding the above loan account, the contents of which we note. Please accept our sincere apologies for the delay in responding. I am sorry that you have found it necessary to complain regarding the service you have received in relation to your request.
Pursuant to your request, we enclose a copy of the executed loan agreement ("the Agreement") including the terms and conditions.
Please note in relation to the above that we have been unable to locate a copy of the original agreement amongst our records and we are accordingly enclosing in its place (in compliance with Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983) a copy of the terms of the executed agreement.
They now write about a spreadsheet of payments and dates with breakdowns that they included.
As you note in your letter, under section 77 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the bank is required to provide certain information relating to the loan agreement (including an executed copy of the credit agreement) within twelve days of receiving such a request from you. In the event that the bank fails to provide you with that information within that period, for as long as that default continues, the bank is not entitled to enforce the loan agreement against the customer.
For the avoidance of doubt, the suspension on the bank's ability to enforce the agreement is only temporary, staying in place until such time as the bank provides the information required under section 77. Accordingly, as soon as that information is provided, the agreement becomes enforceable once again.
Moreover, you should be aware that "enforcement" in this context refers to the bank's ability to seek a judgement against the customer for any sums outstanding under the agreement. Any temporary suspension on enforcement does not prevent the bank from issuing default notices, withdrawing further credit from the customer and interest accruing on money owed under the agreement.
Accordingly, whilst I accept that the information required under section 77 was regrettably not provided to you and the agreement continues to be enforceable.
This means that should you, the customer fail to meet payments due under the agreement, the bank will be entitled to take such action, including court proceedings, as it may consider appropriate.
We regret that we are unable to comply with your request under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 as the information represents a true and accurate record of the manner in which your account was conducted. The processing of these details is in compliance with the Act.
Further, for the reasons set out above, the bank will not be removing your personal data from its systems nor does the bank accept that the account is reasonably in dispute. Accordingly, we cannot agree with the points that you make in your letter regarding this matter.
I have enclosed a leaflet entitled "Listening to your Comments" that details our complaint procedure.
This is the final decision letter and if you are not satisfied with my response, you can refer your complaint to The Financial Ombudsman Service. I enclose a booklet explaining how to refer a complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service. There is a six-month time limit from the date of this letter for you to contact the Financial Ombudsman Service.
Yours faithfully
*******
The only paperwork I have been sent is "Pre-contract Information" and "Agreement for Signing".
Now surely if they don't have a copy of the original, and have admitted that they have lost it, then the account is in dispute and isn't enforceable?
There's not a single page with my signature on it, just a copy of theirs that they have put on a pre-printed application form. Also, they acknowledge that they must send an executed copy of the credit agreement, but they have just sent the credit agreement. Am I right in thinking that to be executed, it must have my signature on it?
Is there a next step on from here, or with that being their final decision, do I just refer it to the Financial Ombudsman Service?
Sorry it has been such a long post, but all help and comments are much appreciated!
HSBC seem to have a bit of a problem with their filing system. I am in a similar situation, although mine is for a credit card account.HSBC admitted that they didn't have the original and that they don't keep documents prior to 2003.
You could try sending them the letter I used (below).I presume your Loan is still current? (They have to keep documents for 5 years AFTER the account has closed or in your case a loan).I have altered it slighly, as mine was for a credit card.
Dear Sir/Madam,
RE: Your letter dated xx/xx/xxxx
Thank you for your response regarding my request for a true copy of my loan agreement. I am sorry to hear that you no longer have in your possession such an important document as a Credit Agreement.As you may be aware, under the Money Laundering Regulations 1993, 2003 and 2007 you are obliged to hold all such documents until 5 years after the account has closed. In confirming that you no longer hold the said document you are committing a very serious offence which can have serious consequences.
It would be my pleasure in reporting HSBC to all the relevant authorities such as the Financial Ombudsman, The Information Commissioners Office and The Financial Crime Branch of Her Majesty’s Treasury.
I would like to give you an opportunity to state your intentions on the above. If I do not hear from you within 7 days then I will report HSBC to the above mentioned authorities.
Did you ever get a response to this? I've noticed so far that HSBC are never wrong, and even when they admit they're wrong, they still think they're right!
Thanks again, ill send it next week and see what happens next!
<laffin> the best admission of guilt you can expect from HSBC and the point where you win is a phrase similar to " we cannot agree with you but in this instance we will (do whatever you asked for)".
They do have a funny way of speaking like that! It would be nice if they said "we don't have your. Paperwork, we were wrong" but unfortunately we live on the same planet as HSBC! Only time will tell what they say, but hopefully they won't string this charade out over mmonths and months or even years!
Did you ever get a response to this? I've noticed so far that HSBC are never wrong, and even when they admit they're wrong, they still think they're right!
Thanks again, ill send it next week and see what happens next!
Hi Lucky
The only response I got was an acknowledgment that they had received my letter, and would respond in due course.I'm still waiting
In the mean time they have now told me that a default has been registered on my credit report, although my HSBC account is still missing from Experian for some reason.
HSBC also seem to be passing my account round in circles.It has gone from Metropolitan Coll Serv to Capquest and now back to MCS again
I have now sent them another letter (Courtesy of Pete Castlebest) asking them to remove the default.
I sent the letter about money laundering on the 14/9, quickly followed by the phone harassment letter.
Now today, it seems as if both letters have been completely ignored (I'm still getting daily phone calls and apparently they will keep doing it until I pay!).
All they have sent is a letter titled This arrears notice is required to be issued under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.
It basically states the remaining balance of the loan, and the sum of two months missed payments. It also has the usual stuff about if I don't pay then bad things will happen.
It also came with an information sheet on arrears from the OFT (including nothing about disputes, so utterly useless), and a brochure on understanding overdrafts, which is funny because I've never had an overdraft!
Obviously they are in complete denial of a dispute existing, and have no idea of the consequences involved when going against money laundering law. I actually had a conversation with our accountant at work over this law, and he said that our workplace has to follow it strictly too. Apparently if even one tiny piece of financial information goes missing before the 5 year after closing period, the consequences are dire.
Obviously HSBC are not too worried about it!
So I ask the enlightened ones, is there anything I should be sending to them now, or is it a case of seeing what happens next?
Once again, thankyou all very much for reading and replying to this thread
Hi Lucky 13. you don't have to put up with them pestering you by phone ..
Now today, it seems as if both letters have been completely ignored (I'm still getting daily phone calls and apparently they will keep doing it until I pay!).
They won't if you tell them you're recording their calls ... (whether you are or not ) . but if you click on the 'phone calls' link above , it'll tell you how .....
Or you could also send them this :
Re: Harassment by telephone
ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXX
Dear Sirs
I am writing in relation to the quantity and frequency of telephone calls that I have received from your company, which I deem to be personally harassing.
I have verbally requested that these stop, but I am still receiving calls. (Delete if necessary)
I now require all further correspondence from your company to be made in writing only. This protects us both in the event of a court case.
I am of the view that your continued harassment of me by telephone puts you in breach of Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.
If you continue to harass me by telephone, you will also be in breach of the Communications Act (2003) s.127 and I will report you to OFCOM, Trading Standards and The Office of Fair Trading, meaning that you will be liable to a substantial fine.
Be advised that any further telephone calls from your company will be recorded. (**Even if you don‘t yet have recording equipment!!**)
Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.
If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star
That was the letter I sent, but whether they have given it to the right department, I don't know!
As I said, as far as I know, the calls to work have stopped (thank God!), but I do still get them on my mobile. I have noticed today though, going through my call logs that they started phoning from two numbers, then last week just the one number, and today they have only called me once!
Apart from knowing how many times they have phoned, the mobile ones don't bother me so much as I've blocked all incoming calls apart from the numbers in my directory!
Thanks for putting the letter up, it can't be shown too many times! I'm just curious as to what their next step will be now!
I received a very simple and to the point letter on Saturday stating that because I didn't sign the last letter regarding data protection and money laundering, they can't comply!
Obviously they forgot about the letter I sent them right at the beginning of all this stating exactly why they don't need my signature!
Should I send them another letter reminding them of the previous one I sent regarding this? Obviously they are just playing tricks again and delaying the inevitable, but I don't know whether to ignore this one, or remind them again.
I have another letter out of the blue, which seems to be a little strange.
As you know, the last letter I sent was stating that they had broken money laundering laws and I wanted an explanation, now they have sent this:
Thank you for your letter dated 21 September 2009.
Regrettably I am unable to provide you with a copy of the executed loan agreement at this time, however, we will provide this when we are in a position to do so.
Whilst I regret that your request has not yet been complied with, I would like to clarify that the absence of any loan agreement does not render the contractual relationship between HSBC and yourself as unenforceable. You have had the benefit of monies withdrawn under the credit agreement and these remain lawfully due and owing to HSBC Bank plc. HSBC Bank plc will exercise its rights and proceed to recovery of the same and will also contact credit reference agencies, as it is entitled to do so, if required.
A copy of the agreement including loan terms which is identical to the agreement executed by the parties is acceptable for the purposes of a request pursuant to Section 77 by virtue of paragraph 3(2)(b) of the Consumer Credit Act (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. Therefore, this allows the Bank to provide a reconstituted agreement.
(Then there's the usual blurb about recording phone calls etc).
I don't really know what to say about this one, other than the facts that they haven't explained why they have broken anti money laundering laws, that they say they can provide a "reconstituted agreement" and expect it to be credible, and they seem to be talking gibberish now!
I know from what I have read on here over probably hundreds of hours that reconstituted is not lawful, the account is in dispute, and they can't contact credit reference agencies.
Anyone had this kind of letter under such circumstances before, or anyone got any advice on what to do next?
As always, any comments are greatly appreciated and I wish to thank everyone for turning this from a nightmare to an interesting little adventure!
report them everywhere you can keep this letter safe, as they've confirm that they dont have the agreement. the most important part of this letter is the first sentence till the "however" - the rest is just typicall BULLS***
I completely agree, yet they admitted this to an even greater degree last month! I don't know why they have admitted it twice, and added the other stuff as it has nothing to do with the letter I sent them previously!
It's quite scary to think people like this are responsible for keeping our money safe!
Regrettably I am unable to provide you with a copy of the executed loan agreement at this time, however, we will provide this when we are in a position to do so.
Whilst I regret that your request has not yet been complied with, I would like to clarify that the absence of any loan agreement does not render the contractual relationship between HSBC and yourself as unenforceable. You have had the benefit of monies withdrawn under the credit agreement and these remain lawfully due and owing to HSBC Bank plc. HSBC Bank plc will exercise its rights and proceed to recovery of the same and will also contact credit reference agencies, as it is entitled to do so, if required.
This is apparently inspired by the recent mcguffic case. I actually have predicted after reading the judgment that now banks will simply refuse to provide agreements when they do not have bulletproof ones. This gives them perfect excuse (I am not saying that it is a lawful excuse) to continue with 'noneforcement' actions such as demanding repayments, issuing DN, reporting defaults to CRA's and so on.
I did not expect them to catch up on it so quickly, though.
The only thing you can do now is to hit them with S.A.R which among other things specifically requests Credit Agreement but this time not a 'true' or reconstructed copy but the executed original with your and their signatures.
--------------------------------------------------
Yorkshire Bank ~1200£ of charges reclaimed many moons ago, settled out of court
HSBC ~350£ of charges reclaimed many moons ago, settled out of court
HSBC ~4000£ flexiloan CCA request sent May 2009, 'sorry, we do not have your CCA' letter received June 2009, AccountInDispute letter sent.
HSBC ~9000£ CC CCA request sent May 2009, no response, AccountInDispute letter sent.
HSBC - preliminary letter for about 300£ of unfair charges plus interest sent May 2009, LBA sent June 2009, N1 POC and Schedule of charges submitted July 2009
Egg - CCA, SAR, "no more calls" letter, DMP offer sent July 2009. Got a DN from Egg - wont say a word on this one until court papers are received.
Thanks Readalot, that's really interesting and a little worrying too.
Might I also ask where I would find an example of a S.A.R? It's not something I'm familiar with, but I should really step my game up if they are playing like that. Interesting that they completely ignored the anti money laundering letter considering the importance and severity of such laws!
HSBC Unsecured Loan, Ignoring CCA Request
on my loan agreement!
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LOWELL DETESTER.
Originally Posted by lucky13
calls have stopped completely and i even had an appologise letter 