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CEO Penalty Notice Challenge - not parked within bay
I received a pcn from legit CEO on 22/4/09.
Challenged next day.
Rejection of Challenge received today
First question - re timing - surely they had to reject this sooner? Given that I'm only given 28 days, why can they take as long as they like?
Some more info below- any help would be great but am wondering if I should now give up and pay?
I have tried challenging my ticket as I was not aware of the parking bay - due to rushing and only checking the timing for the free on road parking spot. Nothing about parking in bays was on the nearby sign and I simply didn't notice it as I was parked on the street. No excuse but I was such a short time that the penalty charge seems a bit of a joke. Unfortunately I was NOT in a private car park like so many people posting so I can't just ignore it as it is a council CEO notice.
I used common sense in my parking and so pulled up to close(ish) to the car in front. Unfortunately they were also over the bay lines. I did not stop anyone else from parking (the car in front did), but in any case lots of free spaces were around at the time. It wasn't busy, and photos from CEO show at least 2 other empty spaces at the time! I was only at the shops for 10 mins (20 min space). Can a challenge ever succeed given that I was over the line of the bay, albeit with reason(s)?
Points to note:
Spaces nearby (neighbouring road) have no bays marked.
CEO said that if he'd seen me returning to the car he wouldn't have issued the ticket! This was heard by two passing police officers but I didn't think to get anything in writing at the time, I was just so furious to be given a ticket.
My initial challenge letter has been rejected, but they have ignored most of the points made in my challenge letter. Only point they have addressed is that the sign apparently does not need to tell drivers to park within the bays that is just our responsibility? Despite bay markings I would have been right at the corner of the road and some danger to cars coming round the corner had I been correctly parked further back. I didn't stop anyone else from parking and I was only 10 mins and CEO agreed that he wouldn't have issued ticket if seen me!!!!
~Rejection of first challenge
Do I just pay up or is it worth formal appeal?
Help please as I was determined that in the circumstances I shouldn't pay, but getting bit stressed at thought of appeals process and don't really want to pay higher fine.
Re: CEO Penalty Notice Challenge - not parked within bay
Originally Posted by Al27
Council don't even have to respond to informal challenge,
Yes this does seem to be the prevalent belief. Personally I'm not convinced because the pcn has to say that challenges will be considered and how other than by replying can an authority prove that they have been considered?
Also the Secretary of State's Statutory Guidance that has been published in accordance with section 87 of the TMA 2004 advises that
"Enforcement authorities should give proper consideration and respond to these challenges with care and attention" and that "authorities should respond within 14 days".
The common argument is that this is just guidance but I argue that yes it is but it is backed up by section 87(2) of the TMA 2004 that advises "a local authority must have regard to such guidance". I think it is crystal clear that the secretary of state requires informal challenges to be replied to but once again this in an area that needs clarification from adjudicators.
Re: CEO Penalty Notice Challenge - not parked within bay
Thanks for the responses so far.
Photos that I took showing relevant area now attached but have also provided ones sent to me by the Parking Control people which show exactly how I was parked - I clearly realise that I should have been in the back space, but simply pulled up to car ahead in the bays and didn't even notice (the now abundantly clear!) bay markings in my rush to get toddler out car, in buggy, and back within the short 20mins parking time allowed- Signposts closeby - one clearly without any sign on at all, the other showing timing.
Re: CEO Penalty Notice Challenge - not parked within bay
My ticket is now also scanned for completeness.
The other road that can be seen just beside the one I was parked in is no bays, no parking restrictions at all - still kicking myself for not parking along this one as no difference in distance to the shops.
Don't know if this makes any difference at all. Main thing that I think would have helped is if I'd had the thought to get the officials written statements about it all at the time - the CEO said he wouldn't have given ticket. Car infront also got a ticket, but I think probably went over the time limit too.
Re: CEO Penalty Notice Challenge - not parked within bay
This is the whole of the reverse of my pcn - shows how I was told I could challenge the notice.
In their reply they say that "In accordance with the Borough of xxxxxxxxxxxxx (Control of Parking) (Consolidation) Order 2008 drivers are required to park wholly within the lines of a parking bay. A copy of the Order is available for viewing at the Council offices". I thought that the signpost should have mentioned that the bays were an important part of the parking rules.
Someone has said that it is all an "infringement of my human rights" but I'm not sure how to make that argument stand?
Re: CEO Penalty Notice Challenge - not parked within bay
So, any thoughts on how I fight this? I really wasn't aware of the bay and even checked the sign at the time of parking (to see how long I was allowed to stay) - as photo shows, the bays weren't mentioned, and becasue of other car there I was only aware of the end of a row of spaces and didn't reslise that individual spaces were marked out. Can't believe I can get a ticket in a "free" parking space when I wasn't causing an obstruction. Really would appreciate a view from one of you experts??
Re: CEO Penalty Notice Challenge - not parked within bay
Can you go get some more pics of the bay, showing both end markings in full detail, and pics of the outside markins.
On fist glance it looks like the bay maybe non compliant
Re: CEO Penalty Notice Challenge - not parked within bay
I also took the attached pics myself (other photos of car were CEOs) - can't take any more photos til tomorrow, and then depends how busy (wouldn't like to get another pcn!!)
What are we looking for? What would make the bay "non compliant" as you say? I would like all the amunition I can get to go back to them with, as I was under the impression from the CEO that the charge wouldn't stand and I'm determined as a matter of principal not to pay it!!
Re: CEO Penalty Notice Challenge - not parked within bay
Originally Posted by TheBogsDollocks
Yes this does seem to be the prevalent belief. Personally I'm not convinced because the pcn has to say that challenges will be considered and how other than by replying can an authority prove that they have been considered?
Also the Secretary of State's Statutory Guidance that has been published in accordance with section 87 of the TMA 2004 advises that
"Enforcement authorities should give proper consideration and respond to these challenges with care and attention" and that "authorities should respond within 14 days".
The common argument is that this is just guidance but I argue that yes it is but it is backed up by section 87(2) of the TMA 2004 that advises "a local authority must have regard to such guidance". I think it is crystal clear that the secretary of state requires informal challenges to be replied to but once again this in an area that needs clarification from adjudicators.
Re: CEO Penalty Notice Challenge - not parked within bay
We are looking for double end of bay markings, when it should have single line markings .
You can tell this by a continous painted dotted line on the outside of the bay. That would mean is is an hybrid of P1032 Parking Bay with Indviual Spaces and a P1028.4 drawing 1.
Re: CEO Penalty Notice Challenge - not parked within bay
As the bay marking and sign appear compliant and there are no acceptable mitigating circumstances then there is little left to work with.
However, there is still the Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) to explore and the CEO's log book entry. Personally I would only explore these avenues if the reduced rate is no longer available or you can afford to gamble.
It is possible the TRO contains errors or loopholes that assist you as well as the CEO's log book.
Re: CEO Penalty Notice Challenge - not parked within bay
Thank You everyone for your help. No wonder local shops are going out of business with "jobs worth" traffic wardens (no I refuse to call them CEOs as that sounds important) on the beat. Am going to gamble though, because my original challenge letter has had a standard response that ignores most of the points made. What would be mitigating circumstances that are acceptable?
Re: CEO Penalty Notice Challenge - not parked within bay
In this case a mitigating circumstance would be factors that caused you to not park within the bay markings
Such circumstances are only likely to be accepted if they are considered to be an emergency situation and so unless this is the case and you can prove it, I advise you, if you want to gamble, to follow the advice in my previous post and anything constructive that is subsequently posted.
CEO Penalty Notice Challenge - not parked within bay
from legit CEO on 22/4/09.
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Originally Posted by Al27
