Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

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BAILIFFS - The Law and Your Rights

Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.

The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.

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  1. #1
    Basic Account Holder jickster Novitiate

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    Default Hpi check states Category C.....

    I have done an HPI check on a car that i am looking to buy and it came up that the car was a Category C write off.

    I understand what this means but do not understand that the owner is adament that this is not on the V5C form.

    How can this be? If the HPI states it is catergory C then wouldn't VOSA have completed a VIC check on it in order for a V5C to be issued and the V5C will show this?

    Is there something dodgy here or is it just a mistake by VOSA or DVLA?

    thanks


  2. #2
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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    Cat C is damaged repairable but is of such severity that the repair cost is greater than the value of the vehicle and is notified to both DVLA and HPI. A VIC is required to put the vehicle back on the road.

    Cat D is also damaged repairable, but the cost of the repair is greater than the value of the vehicle (usually due to the difficulty of obtain parts etc.). It is NOT notified to DVLA, but is notified to HPI. No VIC is required.

    As an example of each:

    If a fairly new car was severely rear-ended, then although it could be repaired, the skill, time and money required is greater than the value of the car The entire rear end requires a rebuild. The purpose of Cat C here is to impose a VIC to ensure that the write-off is not ringed or cat and shut.

    If a 10 year-old Mondeo had a minor shunt that would require a new front wing, headlamp and bumper; plus the cost of fitting and spraying. The it is likely that it would be a Cat D write-off. It could be made roadworthy by use of unskilled labour and second-hand parts.

    I wonder if HPI have erred and it is actually a Cat D.


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    Basic Account Holder gwc1000 Informative gwc1000 Informative gwc1000 Informative

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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    Quote Originally Posted by jickster View Post
    If the HPI states it is catergory C then wouldn't VOSA have completed a VIC check on it in order for a V5C to be issued and the V5C will show this?
    Not always. Recently I took a 2000(V) in part-ex which was a Cat C. Was written off in 2001, so the damage must have been severe as it was only 1 year old at the time. However, there was nothing at all showing on the log book. I doubt there is anything dodgy with the car, but satisfy yourself that any repairs have been carried out to a sufficient standard.


  4. #4
    Basic Account Holder jickster Novitiate

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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    I'm satisfied with the actual car but just don't understand reasons why it would not be on the log book? Are all HPI checks accurate as there are so many and at varied prices.
    Could the HPI be incorrect? Is there anyway to check this?


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    Hello Jickster!

    Cat C and Cat D has nothing whatsoever to do with severity, or complex repairs or any of the other scare stories the Motor Trade like to spout off when it happens to suit them.

    The difference between Cat C and Cat D is simply a financial one, the threshold between the cost of repairs exceeding the pre-accident value (Cat C), and the cost of repairs not exceeding the pre-accident value (Cat D). The powers that be have added Red Tape on top of that, to harvest more Tax on the back of pretending to reduce crime.

    So, Cat C damage now needs a Vehicle Identity Check (VIC), before a new copy of the V5C can be issued, whereas a Cat D does not.

    All of this is heavily distorted by the fact that Insurance Companies do not want to repair Cars if they can possibly avoid it. They want premiums, and anything beyond that is a PITA for them, despite the glossy adverts that say how caring they are, and how they will look after you when you've had a bumpety wumpety.

    When you have a knock, then the Insurance Company will be looking at how best to save themselves money.

    If the damage looks severe, they'll say it's a Cat B, and will take it off you and off it will go for dismantling to a ready and willing industry who want it for Parts. Quite right too if the damage is severe.

    However, beyond that, they will be looking at how best they can save money. The worst for them is to finance the Repairs, as that will drag on, the costs can escalate, and they'll be lumbered with additional adminicon costs, storage costs, and costs such as hire car etc etc...and all before they screw a bodyshop into doing a cut price repair at a discounted rate.

    They do, however, have another option, and that's to sell the Car to the growing Salvage Industry. It's only growing, because the Insurance Companies are selling more cars to it...makes sense when you think about that.

    A slightly damaged Car can be repaired or declared Cat D and sold for Salvage, and all depending on how easy it would be for the Insurance Company. Two identical Cars could go two ways, one repaired (no history at all), the other sold as Salvage and repaired (Cat D history on HPI).

    Cat C is just cars that may, or may not, be more damaged, as it all depends on the age.

    A brand new Car could be quite heavily damaged, but would be a Cat D, and an older Car could be lightly damaged, but Cat C, as its value is usually low compared to the cost of new Parts, so pre-accident value is lower than cost of repair.

    In a few years time, most Cars on the road now will be crushed into a little cube, so the main key is to ignoreicon the hype and vested interests, and spend as little as possible for the best car you can get that is safe and reliable.

    A well repaired Cat C is perfectly viable, if it has indeed been well repaired, and/or was not that badly damaged in the first place.

    A repaired Cat D may not be such a good buy, as you may end up paying more because it's a Cat D!

    An Insurance repaired Car may actually be the worst of the lot, as it has no history, so you may only find out later, having paid top whack that the Car has had some serious repairs that nobody mentioned to you.

    An A1 Car may, likewise, not be a cracking deal, as depreciation could be alarming.

    So, don't be afraid of any Car, no matter what the history. Get it checked if in any doubt, and negotiate a good price if it is in good order but has some history.

    Beware the traders who hide real issues, which they will, and don't assume a Car has no history just because nothing pops up on HPI.

    Equifax used to own HPI, now it's part of an Insurance Company...all Debt Industry related, so always stand back and work out what, exactly, all the hype is about and don't be too suckered in by the hot air.

    HPI is quite like the CRAs in many respects, not that surprising when you know their history!

    Cheers,
    BRW

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    Basic Account Holder wheelergeezer Informative wheelergeezer Informative

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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    What a cracking reply!!!!! Now, if only more people with this sort of knowledge could contributeicon instead of the usual know alls who know very little and jump on everyones posts to critisise this sentence or that word.

    Well done that man!


  7. #7
    Basic Account Holder gwc1000 Informative gwc1000 Informative gwc1000 Informative

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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    Quote Originally Posted by banker_rhymes_with View Post

    However, beyond that, they will be looking at how best they can save money. The worst for them is to finance the Repairs, as that will drag on, the costs can escalate, and they'll be lumbered with additional adminicon costs, storage costs, and costs such as hire car etc etc...and all before they screw a bodyshop into doing a cut price repair at a discounted rate.

    BRW
    At the risk of sounding rude, you don't seem to have a clue what you are talking about. I would be interested if you could elaborate on how an insurer's administration and/or storage costs would escalate if a vehicle was repaired rather than being written off, which would also result in the insured being paid an acceptable sum for their vehicle? Are you suggesting that approved repairers charge insurers storage whilst a vehicle is on their premises? And what is this about screwing down for cut price repairs? You should know that there is an accepted labour charge that insurers pay for refinishing.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    Hello GWC1000!

    At the risk of sounding rude, you don't seem to have a clue what you are talking about.
    Well, you do sound rude, but I'm big enough, old enough, and certainly ugly enough to find that amusing.

    I would be interested if you could elaborate on how an insurer's administration and/or storage costs would escalate if a vehicle was repaired rather than being written off, which would also result in the insured being paid an acceptable sum for their vehicle?
    What planet have you been on?

    Insurance Companies want premiums. End of story.

    Damaged Cars are what they do not want but, they have to pretend they do or else nobody would insure with them. So, they place lots of glossy adverts, and get models to hold phones so you will think it's a fun, funky world they live in, and they just want to help.

    The reality is they will do all they can to save money.

    A Damaged Car has a whole series of issues that kick in, depending on the level of disability the damage causes. But many will need to be Recovered, then stored somewhere while they work out what to do with it.

    Unless I'm mistaken, secure storage areas do not grow on tress, and Santa doesn't give out Recovery Trucks at Christmas.

    So, their Costs start to rise, not to mention employee time dealing with their insured, or dealing with a broker if there's someone in the middle. Again, employees don't grow on trees either, so their time represents a cost. That cost adds up.

    Damaged Car will by now have incurred Recovery Costs, Storage at the Recovery Yard, before anything is decided. Insured may by then be buzzing around in a Hire Car, another thing that doesn't grow on trees either. So, another Cost.

    Eventually they'll decide that an Engineer needs to go and take a look at it, or they may have an imaging system where the Recovery Yard or Storage Yard can beam back images for an initial assessment. Again, none of that grows on trees either, so Costs add up...more so, if an Engineer has to thrash his Repmobile to the Yard to go and have a look.

    Anyway, at some stage, the Damaged Car will be pointed towards Repair, Insurance Loss/Salvage (Cat C/D), or Insurance Loss/Dismantling (Cat B), or Total Loss/Crush (Cat A).

    At this stage, the Costs are the same for a Damaged Car that is sold as Salvage, or a Damaged Car that is pushed ahead for Repair.

    Damaged Car Sold as Salvage

    Let's say they manage to persuade their Insured to walk away with money, so they pay out. But they still have the Car, still sitting in a Yard, still costing them Storage. But at least Hire Car Costs are ended, and no need to keep staff busy talking to the Insured. Now they want the Car gone pronto, to save on any further Costs. So, it gets a Cat C/D or B Rating, depending on Damage and how much they think they will get, and it will eventually be sold under Contract or via Trade auctionicon. Indeed, the Damaged Car may have to be moved from Storage Yard A to Salvage Yard B, and someone has to move it...which they pay for.

    After agreed Sale, they are in the clear, usually after 5-10 Days, after that, the Trade Buyer is liable for the Storage Costs. They get paid within 7-14 days and, quite often they get paid quite a lot. So, the correct term is Insurance Loss not Total Loss, as they have not, usually, made anywhere near what one would call a Total Loss. The phrase is much abused these days.

    The insured may well pop up at this point to have a toot, to say how they loved that Car and want it Repaired, how dare they Write it Off. So, Damaged Car they were going to sell as Salvage, now gets stuck at the Yard incurring more Storage Charges, while their employees haggle with their Insured on the one side, and the chain of Bodyshops on the other to see which way they can handle...so, more Costs, more Storage, more employee time, more Hire Cost time...it's enough to make them weep.

    But the money they get may well be a large percentage of what they paid to their insured so, not all bad. One reason why they are so keen to see a healthy and active Salvage Industry, although they won't admit that. But a strong Salvage Industry means top prices for their ruins!

    Damaged Car Repaired

    Now, let's say the Damaged Car has finally been assessed for Repair, either because they decided, or they were forced into it by their Insured. Perhaps they could not get away with Salvage, and/or because the Damage was clearly repairable, and to not repair would've seemed churlish of them.

    So, Yard Storage Costs continue while they organise this. Hire Car Costs continue for the Hire Car their Insured is buzzing around in. Eventually, they agree a deal with some Bodyshop or other, and the Car is beamed from Storage to Repair...hold on, this isn't Star Trek, so someone has to bimble over in another Recovery Truck, to go and fetch it. They pay that, either directly, or embedded in the Bodyshop cost.

    Many Bodyshops will charge Storage, depending on their Contract or desperation to get the business to avoid going out of business themselves. Either way, there is a Storage Cost, either it's up front, or added to the Bodyshop's Fees...because, wait for it, Bodyshop Storage Areas don't grow on trees either!

    Damaged Car will then be pulled in to start work, all the while their Staff have to liaise with the Insured to tell them it's all coming along nicely. How is the Hire Car going, we hope you like it etc.

    If all goes very well, the Damaged Car will not hit any snags, and Repair Costs won't shoot into orbit because the Engineer missed something, or because hidden issues appeared once Repairs were started (the pound fell in value, Parts went up, fuel costs went up, so Parts Costs went up, etc etc). However, often they do go wrong, and many Cars ended up having Repairs halted if something nasty and/or expensive crops up while being Repaired. Then they are back to a Salvage situation, having by then wasted Bodyshop costs too...so you can see why they are often reluctant to have things Repaired, because who knows how that will turn out.

    If everything went well, Hire Car goes back, Repaired Car gets handed over to their Insured, and that is that. Phew, glad that's over etc.

    However, if everything does not go well, then their Costs shoot up further, more Hire Car costs, more Staff Costs, more Bodyshop Costs etc etc....this happens, they know it happens, so they will try to avoid Reapirs if they can, or will only Repair the ones they cannot possibly avoid.

    And what is this about screwing down for cut price repairs? You should know that there is an accepted labour charge that insurers pay for refinishing.
    Yeah, pull the other one, it has bells on!

    The Bodyshop Industry is in dire straights, and Bodyshops are going out of business all the time. Most moan at the way they are treated by the big insurance companies, so to suggest it's one big happy family with a nice stable rate is plain delusional.

    The hard facts are that we are driving around more slowly these days so, on average, Cars are damaged less and less severely, but more and more are damaged in view of the escalating numbers.

    However, the real issue is that a far greater percentage of Damaged Cars are now being sold to the Salvage Industry, i.e. a greater percentage on bigger and bigger numbers. That can only mean that Insurance Companies are Repairing fewer and fewer Cars as a percentage of what does get Damaged. End result is a booming Salvage Industry, and many more Cars buzzing around that have a Cat D or Cat C rating...and a still large percentage buzzing around that have been damaged, but that have no Cat C/D Rating, because the Insurance Company ended up paying for the Repairs. They are not daft enough to add a Cat D to their own Cars, although I cannot see why not. But that's another issue.

    OK, that explain things any better?

    Cheers,
    BRW


  9. #9
    Basic Account Holder gwc1000 Informative gwc1000 Informative gwc1000 Informative

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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    Quote Originally Posted by banker_rhymes_with View Post




    OK, that explain things any better?

    Cheers,
    BRW
    Absolutely not. I have to say, everything you have described cannot be from personal experience in the insurance or refinishing trade, but maybe from your own imagination, or worse, stories you have picked up down the pub.
    Where we are insurance companies pay 34 per hour for body repair work with no storage charges.

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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    Absolutely not. I have to say, everything you have described cannot be from personal experience in the insurance or refinishing trade, but maybe from your own imagination, or worse, stories you have picked up down the pub.
    The above does not merit a direct response. However, I will respond to your other point below, mainly for the benefit of others.

    Where we are insurance companies pay 34 per hour for body repair work with no storage charges.
    This is basic O Level Business Studies. Any Cars sitting around waiting to be Repaired represent a Storage Cost...that's unless a Bodyshop has some sort of magic spandex Parking Area that costs nothing and can accommodate an infinite number of vehicles for free.

    If Storage is not being charged directly, then it is being charged indirectly within the 34 an hour claimed above that some Bodyshops are getting.

    The going rate for Storage is usually around 10+VAT a day but, can be a lot more. Thus, at a rough guess 50p or so from the 34 will be the Storage component, or more, depending on how long each vehicle sits at the Bodyshop compared to actual time on task that the Bodyshop can get away with charging.

    The Insurance Company pays for this, and won't like doing so. Evidence of this being that Bodyshops in the above example cannot seem to get away with charging them for it directly, so they are having to hide it within the 34 rate. But hiding it is what they are doing. It'll be hidden deliberately if the Bodyshop knows what it is doing and knows that Storage is a Cost it must cover via its overall fees. Or it'll be hidden by accident if the Bodyshop is clueless and/or delusional, and thinks their Parking areas costs them nothing. They'll wake up one day when the Parking Area needs to be re-surfaced, or when the Council asks for higher Rates in view of that nice big Car Parking Area they have.

    However, the point is the Insurance Company has to see a certain number of Damaged Cars repaired every year to retain the illusion that is what they do. If 34 an hour is what they must pay in the above neck of the woods, then that, for now, is what they will pay. But that is not what they do. They are in business to harvest premiums and to keep actual expenditure on actual repairs to within as low a limit as they can.

    If 34 is the going rate now, you can bet that is being looked at. The Insurance Companies will go with anyone who can offer the same service for 33.50. However, if 34 is the best they can get, for now, then that is what they will pay, for now. Next year it could well be different.

    As the recession bites deeper, even 34 an hour may be under threat, along with the Bodyshops who are currently getting that.

    Nevertheless, that still adds up to around 238 per working day (assuming 7 hours) on task, plus Parts. Or, perhaps in the above area, Parts are provided for free, plucked from the Parts Tree in the Parts Orchard!

    Going back to the point, assuming the 34 rate, that still means 238 a day, plus Parts, and that is the cost to repair something, per day, when it actually reaches the repair stage. While the Repair stage is in hand, the Insured is still buzzing around in their Hire Car, and the Insurance Company is still having to allocate Staff Time to liaise with the Insured, and to liaise with the Bodyshop, and possibly liaise with the Broker, and possibly liaise with the man they send out to check on the Repairs when they are finally done. Thus, other Costs are still building while the Car is having 34 an hour lavished on it at the Bodyshop (plus Parts at full Manufacturer's RRP).

    The point being the Insurance Company does not like all of those Costs, and does not like paying them. It will do anything it can to avoid them, or reduce them to the absolute minimum. If its own Costs are cut back to the minimum by paying its staff the minimum it can get away with, then its beady eyes will be looking at that 34 an hour...or avoiding that Cost totally by selling more Cars as Salvage...which is what they are all doing, funnily enough. The steady increase in the numbers of Cars being released as Salvage, as a growing percentage of all Damaged Cars, is the evidence of that.

    Like it, or lump it, there are more and more Cat C and Cat D Cars around, and there will be even more next year, and the year after, and the year after that. Either work with that, or it's bury head in the sandicon time to pretend it doesn't happen.

    Jumping back to the original Post...

    ...the advice I was giving, concerned a Cat C vehicle. That advice remains that if the vehicle is reliable and well repaired, starts, stops and goes OK and looks good, and is available at a good price, then my advice is to buy it. Because of the way Insurance Companies are now operating, there are now more and more Cat C and Cat D Vehicles out there, and many are well worth buying to keep the cost of motoring down.

    Modern Cars are not meant to last, because they are just cheap throway rubbish that happens to fit the Debt based economy that we are lumbered with. Most now have a short life cycle, maybe 10-15 years at most for the majority, by which time they will be crushed into little cubes and shipped off to China to make more cheap Debt based economy rubbish we neither need nor actually want.

    The key for Consumers is to avoid paying too much for their Motoring. If a well repaired Cat C or Cat D vehicle is one way to achieve that, then all well and good. Anything to keep hard earned money where it belongs, i.e. with the Consumer.

    The Motor Trade pretends to hate Cat C and Cat D vehicles and yet, generally, will happily sell a vehicle they know to have been repaired in the past, without mentioning a thing. That's if they can get away with it. At the moment, HPI allows exactly that, because any Car repaired by an Insurance Company has absolutely no visible/public record on HPI.

    Hence my argument that every Car that is damaged should have a Cat C or Cat D rating, irrespective of who actually pays for the repairs. That would add transparency, and would mean Consumers are not seen off by Traders playing dumb about prior repairs they have spotted when a Car was on the lift.

    All damaged and repairable Cars have to be repaired in any event if they are to be used again. So, ultimately, it is actually a neutral issue for Bodyshops, because many will get to see the work one way or another, either via an Insurance Company, or by repairing Damaged Cars themselves for re-Sale, or by repairing Damaged Cars for the growing numbers of buyers of Damaged Cars. There's absolutely nothing wrong if the Damage is declared and people know what they are getting.

    The only people who don't want to pay for these Repairs are the Insurance Companies. So, it makes sense for them and for everyone else, if the Insurance Companies release Damaged Cars to the Repair Industry directly, and stop pretending they are actually interested in Repairs themselves. I am arguing that they must only do so fairly and safely, to ensure the dangerous examples are only released for Dismantling and not Repair.

    That, I suppose, is my main point. There is not yet enough transparency when it comes to Damaged Cars. It is nothing less than dubious that Cars repaired by Insurance Companies have no record of those repairs on HPI. But, as HPI is just the public face of the Debt Industry's own Motor Database (MIAFTR), it is hardly surprising that HPI only tells the public and Traders what the Debt Industry wants people to see.

    Cheers,
    BRW


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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    Quote Originally Posted by banker_rhymes_with View Post

    This is basic O Level Business Studies.

    BRW
    It may be, but it isn't how you describe in the real world. May I ask you a direct question? Have you ever been employed in the Motor Insurace industry or the Vehicle Refinishing Trade? Or are you just out of college?
    Obviously all costs are reflected in the labour charge. Rent, rates, cost of labour, cost of running an oven, depreciation, interesticon on money etc. etc. But if we were to follow your argument all vehicles involved in accidents would automatically become a total loss. I think one thing that you don't seem to be taking into consideration when you describe how an insurance company would rather declare a vehicle an ITL than repair it, is that they then have to reimburse the owner of that vehicle at a reasonable value. Which can be a huge sum.
    All I can go by is my own experience of owning a motor trade premises for nigh on thirty years. And, my experience is not that which you describe.


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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    May I ask you a direct question? Have you ever been employed in the Motor Insurace industry or the Vehicle Refinishing Trade? Or are you just out of college?
    What a nice fellow you are.

    I have more experience than you, by several years, but that is a pointless little piddling contest that I have no interesticon in winning.

    But if we were to follow your argument all vehicles involved in accidents would automatically become a total loss.
    Please re-read what I have written. Few damaged vehicles are a total loss, the majority sit on a gradual scale from profit, to break even, to a loss, but with very, very few of them being a total loss. That phrase is much abused, as I have made clear. About the only total loss situation that I can think of is theft, where the whole vehicle disappears never to be seen again. That is a true total loss, and the Insurance Company has to pay out on the lot, with no kick back obtainable by selling on the vehicle.

    Even a complete fire damaged ruin is worth the scrap metal value so, even that may not be a total loss, as they get something back.

    But to describe a lightly damaged car that needs a wing and a headlight as a total loss is simply inaccurate.

    I think one thing that you don't seem to be taking into consideration when you describe how an insurance company would rather declare a vehicle an ITL than repair it, is that they then have to reimburse the owner of that vehicle at a reasonable value. Which can be a huge sum.
    Firstly, ITL is a very silly phrase (Insurance Total Loss), because that does not reflect reality. It's a legacy from years ago, but it is a favourite Motor Trade phrase to scare people. I'm not therefore surprised you are so keen on using it.

    The real facts are that damaged vehicles are a by product of driving, they are not a by product of the Insurance world, much as they are in the driving seat on the issue.

    The issue you seem so keen to ignoreicon, is the fact that Insurance Companies get a lot of money when selling repairable Cars, so they do not make, by any stretch of the imagination, anywhere near a total loss on the significant majority of the damaged vehicles they sell. They take a hit, and that hit can often be quite low.

    Certainly, they pay out on a damaged vehicle, but they also get paid for that vehicle too when they sell it on. Lightly damaged vehicles fetch strong prices, amazingly strong prices. The Insurance Companies know this, which is why they have participated so eagerly in Salvage over the years, and why they are now pushing more and more damaged cars that way rather than getting bogged down in Repairs.

    The key unfairness in all of this, is the way the Insurance Companies protect their own interests by failing to register any damage history on damaged cars they themselves have had to pay to be repaired.

    It's a fact of life that the Motor Trade in general pretend to hate all Cat C and Cat D vehicles, as your Posts confirm. However, that attitude is as outdated as the phrase total loss.

    What is needed is greater transparency in the case of all damaged vehicles, to remove the huge Gray areas, the dark little corners where previously damaged cars are put back into circulation with no damage history just because the Debt Industry/Insurance World (same thing) bends its own rules in its own favour to hide that fact.

    To summarise, all damaged vehicles should have that damage recorded. Once that happens, then the issue of damage will become more transparent, and the Consumer can then tell what they are getting more easily. The Motor Trade will adapt to that, and we can all then get on with buying/selling cars, knowing exactly what the history of such cars may be, and pay the right price.

    The above would actually help both Consumers, Traders and the Bodyshop world, and Insurance Companies can get on with what they want to do best, and that's collect premiums. If some want to offer a full service that covers repairs if damage is light, all well and good. Likewise, if some wish to keep premiums down by saying they will never repair cars, but can point people towards repair that they will pay a fixed amount towards, all well and good too.

    But never think that the Insurance Companies are in this for the benefit of either Consumers or the Motor Trade, because they are not. They are in it to play on people's fears, and to earn money doing it. Just like all Insurance. Repairing cars is an annoying factor that they have to deal with, but it's not what they want to deal with if they can avoid it.

    Cheers,
    BRW


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    I take it from your reply that you have no direct experience in either working in either the insurance business, or owning a body repair business. Why you should suggest that the term "total loss" is used by the motor trade to frighten people, I really have no idea. After all, if you go back as far as you say you do, you will know the hpi register never even used to record this information. And, I can assure you any bona fide motor dealer does not want a total loss. True, we will take them in part ex, but they are sent straight to auctionicon where their status is clearly described, and announced at the point of sale. Perhaps the dealers you speak of are those that operate out of their front gardens?
    As I said, I speak from direct experience, perhaps your experiences are different to my own.
    I will happily agree to disagree with you.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    I take it from your reply that you have no direct experience in either working in either the insurance business, or owning a body repair business.
    You take it wrong.

    Why you should suggest that the term "total loss" is used by the motor trade to frighten people, I really have no idea.
    The term is frequently used to imply that any form of categorised vehicle is bad, the clear implication being bad as in dangerous, primarily to inflate the value of what the Trader concerned is actually trying to sell the Customer instead.

    If you have no idea of that fact, you must have lived a very sheltered life as a Trader.

    The point being that Total Loss is an outdated term, and should not be used to describe any vehicle that is legally on the road. To suggest otherwise is being deliberately misleading.

    After all, if you go back as far as you say you do, you will know the hpi register never even used to record this information.
    I'm not sure what you mean by that. HPI plc is a company, the actual data they sell is a combination of a number of databases, ranging from the motor insuranceicon Anti Faud and Theft Register (MIAFTR), the National Mileage Register (NMR) and data received from DVLA and VOSA.

    The information has eveloved over the years, although is called The Register by many Traders, because it was initially just reporting the limited data on MIAFTR. Where the R happens to stand for Register.

    In any event, it must be remembered that MIAFTR is an Insurance database, and it was set up for their own use and their own benefit. The initial reason for its creation was because they found they were being seen off on dubious claims for vehicles that they had already paid out on. People were making 2nd or 3rd claims for damage on vehicles that had already been settled.

    Wise move, and that was quite sensible of them. After that, they logged insurance claims for any vehicle they paid out on but did not repair themselves. Way back in time, Total Loss was the phrase they used (or Write Off, which is just as misleading), although it was not an accurate phrase even then. That's because the damaged vehicles were sold on, so they did not make a Total Loss even at that time.

    However, it was the Wild West in those early days, and Insurance Companies would sell absolutely anything, without any consideration of what happened thereafter. Some vehicles were repaired, but many too were ringed, as it was all too easy, at that time, to buy a cheap wholly destroyed crashed ruin, steal a whole undamaged one just like it, and swap the identities.

    The Trade were quite right to be wary at that time, and Total Loss was not a bad phase to use to describe dubious sheds that appeared at that time.

    Some bright spark realised the data could be sold, IOW, another way to make money. Traders then gained access to a glimpse of this, to help them spot cars with some history. But, even then, many were perfectly good Cars, and many were competently repaired.

    The Categorisations have evolved, although most of the key changes have been forced upon the Insurance Industry. They have been dragged kicking and screaming, rather than because they wanted to make the changes.

    The big turning point was the Environmetal Protection Act 1991. That imposed a Duty of Care on anyone that handled what became known as Controlled Waste. Insurance Companies could no longer just sell anything they liked, they had to clean up their act, or else suffer significant penalties.

    From that was born the more strict Categorisations, and the clear cut off beteen dangerous damaged vehicles and ones that were perfectly suitable for repair, i.e.:

    ================
    CONTROLLED WASTE:
    Cat A - CRUSH
    Cat B - Dismantle

    ================
    Repairable Vehicles:
    Cat C - Repair (Repair Cost > Pre-Accident Value)
    Cat D - Repair (Repair Cost < Pre-Accident Value)
    ================
    Cat-Invisible - Insurance Repaired Cars! <--
    ================

    To have a Category applied in the C/D zone, an engineer must have inspected the Car and deemed it repairable. There should not be any unrepairable Cars in the C/D zone, although in reality there are some exceptions. However, there is liability now, so Insurance Companies are not now keen to allow anything dangerous to escape. That's because they do not wish to risk being accused of selling Controlled Waste to someone who is not authorised to handle it.

    Once these stricter categories were introduced, the market for damaged/repairable vehicles started to grow and grow, as the Insurance Companies realised they had a way to off-load Cars rather than repair them themselves. The market has grown every year ever since, and that growth is accelerating.

    The numbers are growing fast, and yet one area is still being hidden from the above, and that is all of those damaged cars that had the repairs carried out via an Insurance Company. None, repeat, none of them appear on the public HPI data. I've seen some bad examples over the years, and know not to trust HPI but trust in a physical inspection if it can be done.

    And, I can assure you any bona fide motor dealer does not want a total loss. True, we will take them in part ex, but they are sent straight to auctionicon where their status is clearly described, and announced at the point of sale.
    There you go again, using the phrase Total Loss inaccurately. I think this shows where you are coming from, and why you seem to have taken exception to the details I have Posted.

    Clearly, you are whiter than white, so I also assume that when a car comes in that you can see has been repaired in the past, but that is not showing on HPI, you declare that too, and announce it at the point of sale. Or do you send every single vehicle to the local Auction that has the slightest blemish?

    Let us not forget that vehicles are machines, they need parts and repairs as a normal part of being used. A well repaired vehicle is nothing to be afraid of, but I would like all such past repairs to be disclosed. Right now, that is not what happens.

    If every military aircraft were consigned to the scrap heap after a heavy landing or after a few bullet holes, the military would not have anything left to fly. The reality is they are repaired and put straight back into service.

    Same goes for Cars, it is quite wrong to imply that any car that has suffered a bump and has had that bump recorded as Cat C or Cat D is a dangerous ruin that is only fit for the local Auction. It is wrong when, at the same time, many Traders are quite happy to sell insurance repaired vehicles without saying a word, just because nothing awkward pops up on HPI.

    That sort of dual standard is just plain dishonest, but it is rife in the Motor Trade. It's time that little [problem] is dealt with and all past damage declared. The numbers of damaged vehicles (usual Cat C/D plus Cars otherwise not declared) appearing on HPI would then go into orbit but, once people see the true scale, then the market will adjust. Then, having clearly presented damage history declared at time of sale will be common, and transparent. Prices will adjust, and people will not be tricked into paying too much for something.

    If people want to pay extra for a car with zero damage history, fine, likewise, if they wish to pay less for one with declared history, that should be fine too. The key is they must know when there is an option. Right now that is a bigger problem than many people realise.

    Perhaps the dealers you speak of are those that operate out of their front gardens?
    "The time for honouring yourself will soon be at an end." - Maximus Decimus Meriduis.

    I do hope what I have Posted is of interesticon to Caggers in general.

    Cheers,
    BRW


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    What I meant about hpi was that when I first joined them many moons ago, there was no information recorded about insurance claims against vehicles. So if a vehicle had been written of by an insurer if you hpi'd the vehicle you were none the wiser. There was no option to check for insurance claims. Also there was no alert register. You could only find out if there was hp owing or if the vehicle was stolen.
    I would state again than no bona fide dealer wants a total loss, and has absoloutely no interesticon in them. If you really believe that traders talk about total losses in front of a customer in order to frighten them, I despair. There is more than enough money to be made from second hand cars rather than go down that route.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    I would state again than no bona fide dealer wants a total loss, and has absoloutely no interesticon in them. If you really believe that traders talk about total losses in front of a customer in order to frighten them, I despair.
    But that is exactly what you are doing right now. You are insisting on using and abusing the phrase Total Loss, because you are pre-wired to trot that out to differentiate what you would like people to think you are selling, in comparison to some imagined beastly nightmare that you imply they should not touch with a bargepole. That nightmare being Cars offered for Sale well below the Prices you are trying to achieve.

    Clearly, all the Cars you sell are lilly white bargains that smell of roses, and you can hear the sound of Angels singing as you drive them.

    By comparison, all the nasty Cat C and Cat D Cars out there, are Frankenstein Monsters spawned in Hell, held held together with rubber bands and glue, that creak and groan as they rumble on towards their next accident.

    I see you make no mention of where insurance repaired vehicles sit in all of this, and no mention if you slot them in to your own group, or if you relegate them to the same group as the Cat C and Cat D Devil's Chariots that you are so clearly against.

    This is a very common tactic, and one that is quite funny when you know how many Used Car Dealers (including Main Dealers who also move used Stock) actually operate behind the glossy showrooms, gold teeth and fake tans. Even the most upstanding looking Used Car Dealers are just peddling 2nd hand goods. Many are indeed very good people, doing an honest job in an industry that keeps half of all Trading Standards employees busy.

    However, the point of all this is to let Consumers know how things work, and to explain what Cat C and what Cat D is all about, without the vested interest hype. I am seeking to warn them that many previously damaged Cars are in circulation that have absolutely no damage history that can be discovered (without paying for a very detailed inspection), all because the Insurance Industry has elected to hide that history because they happened to pay for the repairs.

    There is more than enough money to be made from second hand cars rather than go down that route.
    Here we go again, same tactic. You are again trotting out the same message, by suggesting that route is bad, and that no self-respecting Used Car Dealer would go down that route.

    The fact is that route is now a significant and growing sector of the Motor Industry. It serves no useful purpose to deride that sector based on hot air and bias. Indeed, the sector should be a lot more significant if Insurance Companies were more honest and started to declare damage on Cars they repair.

    If your stock is always A1, good luck to you, and I have absolutely no problem with that. If people wish to pay a premium for what feels like peace of mind, and don't mind the steep depreciation, then you will always be able to cater to that market.

    But it's not acceptable to voice bias against anything less than the above A1 ideal, because to do so is to ignoreicon and deride a busy, growing and significant sector of the Motor Trade catering to a significant and growing body of Consumers. The bottom line is that when dealing or handling stock that has some history, it should be done honestly and openly. Buyers then have transparency, and can make an informed decision between buying A1 and paying a premium, or buying a Car with declared history and paying less, albeit with a lower resale value that they must also take into account. However, as Cars age and head towards the big crusher, what happened to a Car a few years earlier has less and less impact, and end stage buyers concentrate on what they see, and what they can get on a limited budget.

    At the present time, when buying a used Car, there remains a very real risk of buying what you thought was A1, only to find the Car has been repaired in the past, and neither the Insurance Company who paid for the repairs, nor the Dealer selling the car knowing it had been repaired, bothered to mention any of this to the Consumer.

    Cheers,
    BRW


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    Quote Originally Posted by banker_rhymes_with View Post
    This is a very common tactic, and one that is quite funny when you know how many Used Car Dealers (including Main Dealers who also move used Stock) actually operate behind the glossy showrooms, gold teeth and fake tans. Even the most upstanding looking Used Car Dealers are just peddling 2nd hand goods. Many are indeed very good people, doing an honest job in an industry that keeps half of all Trading Standards employees busy.
    Cheers,
    BRW
    Obviously your experience of the trade is opposite to mine. That's fine. Personally I do not associate with any traders that sport gold teeth or fake tans, or indeed know any. I think that went out in the mid eighties.
    I would refute your estimate that half of Trading Standards employees are kept in employment due to the actions of "very good people, doing an honest job", unless of course you have figures to show. With this throw away comment it is you that is fear mongering and playing to the negative pre conceived perception of what many of the public consider a used vehicle dealer to be. What your motives are behind that I could make an educated guess.
    From your comments it is apparent that you have a low opinion of the Motor Trade, and perhaps your opinion is justified by the personal experiences that you have had. But in my experience proper dealers that sell proper cars are indeed honest and trustworthy. We dont want write offs, and for your information, if when a vehicle is being checked over it is apparent that there has been structural repairs to it, then no, even if it isn't recorded, I will not retail it. I want a quiet life.
    We are poles apart on our opinions, and |I feel it futile to discuss it further, it serves no purpose, and this thread now has nothing to do with the OP's question and has gone way off topic. Therefore I will not comment further unless it has something to do with the OP's problem.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    Talking of the OP's original question.

    A Cat C is not always recorded, and not all are required to have a VIC.

    Before around 2003, I can't now remember, Cat C was not noted on the V5C Registration Documents. So, if a Car is that age, and was declared Cat C before the DVLA/VOSA rules changed, then it may well be recorded on HPI, but nothing will show on the V5C.

    Many Cars also slip through the net, and have no Category added, as the system is not exactly idiot proof.

    Likewise, some Cars do not seem to flag up on the VOSA system, and if they do not see a VIC needed, they won't test it. That Car can then be Registered and Taxed as any other.

    If no V5C is available, then you complete Form V62 and pay a small fee to get a new Document, last time I checked, it's around 25.

    Cars that are Cat C and need a VIC, can be Registered for free, as the new Document can be applied for via Form V62, and no fee is payable, as the V5C fee is included in the VIC Test fee.

    That should wrap this up.

    Cheers,
    BRW


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    Quote Originally Posted by banker_rhymes_with View Post
    Talking of the OP's original question.

    A Cat C is not always recorded, and not all are required to have a VIC.

    Before around 2003, I can't now remember, Cat C was not noted on the V5C Registration Documents. So, if a Car is that age, and was declared Cat C before the DVLA/VOSA rules changed, then it may well be recorded on HPI, but nothing will show on the V5C.

    Many Cars also slip through the net, and have no Category added, as the system is not exactly idiot proof.

    Likewise, some Cars do not seem to flag up on the VOSA system, and if they do not see a VIC needed, they won't test it. That Car can then be Registered and Taxed as any other.

    If no V5C is available, then you complete Form V62 and pay a small fee to get a new Document, last time I checked, it's around 25.

    Cars that are Cat C and need a VIC, can be Registered for free, as the new Document can be applied for via Form V62, and no fee is payable, as the V5C fee is included in the VIC Test fee.

    That should wrap this up.

    Cheers,
    BRW
    Old thread i know,

    But after reading what you have written it make allot of sense, and is very easy to understand, it helped me buy my sons ford focus, which is a cat D, and there's hardly any damage to warrant them righting it off so to speak, it is not yet repaired (which i will do myself) but even if i don't repair it, which i will, it hardly shows its been in an accident as the damage is so light.

    No offence to anyone, but most if not all car dealers are dodgy and not up front, in one way or another, after all as with any sales men/women they want your money and will, as the saying goes, sell there own mother in the process.

    And before i get flamed, i do have friends who are car dealers/salesmen, so i know there tactics very well.

    P.S
    As my reading and writing are not up to scratch, i have to rely on a spell checker, so if my spelling and grammar is wrong, you know why.

    bb4n.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Hpi check states Category C.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Nice1 View Post

    No offence to anyone, but most if not all car dealers are dodgy and not up front, in one way or another, after all as with any sales men/women they want your money and will, as the saying goes, sell there own mother in the process.
    Not all. Some of us have no interesticon in turning anyone over.
    We prefer a quiet life.



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