Thread: Which Grounds for Representation do I tick?

Hi,

My car was towed away by Lambeth council on Saturday because it was in a parking bay where the parking had been suspended.

However, I did check carefully and there is no sign until you walk at least 10 houses down the road.

I have picture evidence of this and the name/contact for the site manager who agrees with me that there is no evidence of signage where I was parked.

The pound gave me a copy of the form entitled Making a representation against the removal of your vehicle.

On the form there are a list of Ground for representation as listed below:

1.The vehicle had not been permitted to remain at rest in a civil enforcement area in circumstances in which a penalty charge was payable by virtue of regulation 4 of the General Regulations.

2.The CEO had not fixed a pcn to the vehicle, pr handed it to the person appearing to him to be in charge of the vehicle, before the vehicle was removed.

3.The power to remove the vehicle under paragraph 2 of regulation 5C of the Removal and Disposal of Vehicles Regulations 1986 was not exercisable by virtue of paragraph 3 of the regulation.

4.The vehicle had been permitted to remain at rest in the place where it was by a person who was in control of the vehicle without the consent of the owner.

5.The place where the vehicle was at rest was not in a civil enforcement area for parking contraventions.

6.The penalty charge or other charge paid to secure the lease of the vehicle exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.

7.There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority.

I am thinking either 5 or 7.

Given what I said before, has anyone got any advice about which is the more relevant and/or any tips to make my appeal more sucessful.

Many thanks.

The pcn was attached so definitely not 2 and I suppose it was in an area where there was enforcement however, there was no signs visible to say this was in effect.

I have attached a link to the form I need to fill out and attached photos showing where my car was parked, the main sign and the area that Thames water were working on.

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyr...feereceipt.pdf

Unless the rules have changed in the last year or so, the positioning of signs in these situations is underpinned by the principle of practicality - so the Council is required only to sign as per the available street furniture - say, a lamppost next to the bay. They don't have to sign in a specific place, so long as it is next to the bay.

In this case, it looks like the bay runs continuously and without seeing it for myself, my hunch is that the sign was probably compliant in terms of its position.

The only line of appeal I could see would be: 7.There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority. You could challenge their decision not to erect further signage given the length of the bay, and argue that their signing was inadequate. You could also point out that there are other available poles and tree trunks which could be used for an additional signs.

That's a shame, you would think that they would have to sign at least at the start of the bay. The existing parking sign looks like an obvious place to sign.

Does anyone know how to request the photos that the CEO would have taken? The parking suspension runs from house 1 - 36 but I've noticed on the pcn that the house number was not noted, just that I was parked on a particular road.

Unless the photo shows clearly the house number, I could argue that there is no proof of the part of road I was parked on. Clutching at staws here!!!

Thanks for all the info so far though.

If the bay is suspended then the suspension applies to the whole bay and the door number is irrelevant. However if the sign said "Outside number 36 to number 42" or some such, then you could check your position relative to that. My hunch (only a hunch!) is that it was the whole bay, as the road works stretch right along - but definitely worth a check.

I would just phone the parking department and ask if you can have the photos. They may say yes and send them to you or they may ask you to put it in writing. The danger is, if you write them a letter, it will be processed as an appeal - and if it just asks for photos, they will reply saying your appeal was unsuccessful! Organised insanity.

But if they want you to put it in writing, go ahead but write clearly at the top "Request for information - this is not an appeal" in the hopes it will be looked at by someone sensible.

If they don't have a photo of the sign, ask to speak to someone who deals with bay suspensions and ask them exactly what was resticted that day. They will clarify for you.

The actual notice says between houses 1 and 36 of BlahBlah Road. Note: there are 56 houses on this road.

I know I was parked outside number 3 but this wasn't mentioned on the pcn. However, I suspect from the photos they take they would be able to locate exactly where I was parked, so this is probably a non starter.

I think I will stick with ticking box 7 and trying to get the fine revoked due to there not being adequate signing. I'm finding it hard to believe that they couldn't have signed anywhere before house number 11 when the zone was 1-36.

One thing I didn't check was where the bays started and ended. Lets say sods law applies and the bay stretched from 1 to opposite number 36 then there were signs stating that the parking had been suspended but the first one of these was posted outside number 11.

I can check to see if the bay I was parked in ended before the first sign. If that is the case then can I say that they didn't post a sign in that bay or does the fact that the sign says between house 1 and opposite 36 mean they only need to post a sign, anywhere, in that area?

I think inadequate signage is the way to go. They will probably consider their signage was legally sufficient, but you can word your appeal on a more common sense angle and hope they are sympathetic. If you parked outside number 3 then headed off on foot, but the first sign you could have encountered was "at least 10 houses down the road", then you would not have seen it.

It's not a line of argument which will legally force them to revoke the charge, but it's a persuasive one if you claim the signs were, to an average person, insufficient for you to be aware there was a suspension.

Good point about checking the bay is continuous too. If there's a break between where you parked and the sign, or a change in restriction (which will be indicated by a double broken line crossing through the bay) then you have a stronger legal argument.

Someone might be able to advise whether you are just appealing the pcn or the whole tow charge. I think it's the latter, but best to be clear on this.

Ah...so refering back to my photo on the left. I was parked next to the bit of red barrier. In between the two white vans.

There is, as you can see, a sign that shows the standard conditions of the bay. And there is no sign showing the temporary suspension of parking.

Outside number 11 was the following sign as shown in this photo I've attached. However, IMHO there is no way I could have seen this from where I was parked and only would have seen it if I had driven past it from the bottom of the road.

So I'm going to tick box 7 and state this in my reasons.

In fact looking at this sign it is quite obvious that this is a change in bay as the zones and addition of pay by machine are displayed (if you compare it to the sign in my first photo that I was parked by).

They don't sign every post in the street because people would complain about it looking ugly. But anyone with common sense would go for the post outside number 3 rather than outside number 11, because it's obvious someone could pull into the end of the bay and not see it.

No, hold on. The CPZ sign must be outside number 3. That's where he parked, next to the red barrier. The "Pay & display" sign is further up, outside number 11. So ignore the above. Got a little over-excited!!

Yes, the CPZ was outside number 3 where I was parked and there were no barriers.

The permit to park and first suspended parking notice was outside number 11, with the barriers and where the work was taking place.

Thanks for all your help one this everyone.

Just to confirm inadequate signs would come under procedural impropriety?

Yes. That's the one to go for.