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Summons for failing to comply with a red light (crossed on flashing amber) - legal advice for magistrates court
I've just had a court summons through for failing to comply with a red light. The police have pursued this as it preceded an accident between myself (a cyclist) and a car turning right after the crossing, without visibility of the lane I was in.
Unlike many cyclists i see in London I wait at red lights, I consider it much safer to do so and know from experience I will almost always catch up with those that do run lights on the next stretch of road, so it does not gain any time regardless.
I am 100% certain and have maintained at all times that the light changed to flashing amber just before I crossed the line, had it not changed when it did I would have braked hard but have stopped before the line - I had stopped peddling and was free wheeling towards the lights with hands on brakes ready to stop if need be. While the lights were near a junction, they were not part of the junction, they were a pedestrian crossing 20m away.
The driver travelling the opposite direction, turned right through heavy traffic, could not have had visibility of me or the lights as there was a bus in the way and cut across the lane, at which point I smashed into the side of the car, dislocating a shoulder and needing 14 stitches. Her statement claims I crossed the light on red, however I do not believe she could possible have seen the lights at the moment I crossed since her statement also claims I "came out of nowhere".
The only other witness statement is a very short statement from a cyclist that was stationary at the lights who claims I "jumped the red light" but otherwise is very brief in his statement.
I do not dispute that the light was red 1 second before I crossed it, however just before I crossed it it had changed to amber (and in uk traffic lights going to amber only after red must be flashing amber), I had good visibility and could see the pedestrian crossing was empty so I proceeded across completely legally. This was also a road I was familiar with and cycled regularly so I was aware that this crossing had flashing amber in its sequence.
I do not believe that having seen an accident in front of you within 2 seconds (20 meters at 15mph) would mean that the cyclist was concentrating on the exact state of the light when I crossed the line, especially as waiting effectively under the light he would have to look steeply upwards to see it.
As I feel this summons literally adds insult to severe injury I will be fighting it in court.
My defence obviously rests on the fact I crossed it on amber and that with this being a split second timing issue neither witness can be relied upon to be accurate, especially the driver who already showed poor observation and driving skills in pulling across a bus/cycle lane without looking.
I intend to ask the prosecution to produce both witnesses so I can get them to elaborate on exactly what they saw since their written statements do not give an timing context - which as I said I think is critical in this case.
Is there anyone that can offer advice on handling this in the court as I have no experience of it myself. I cannot afford the expense of legal representation however I think the legalities of this are relatively simple (as English law goes) my main concern is the do's and don'ts for presenting my case at the hearing or anything else I should consider. Thanks Simon
HSBC Claim: £342 - settlement of £300 offered and accepted before court procedings started
Re: Summons for failing to comply with a red light (crossed on flashin amber) - legal advice for magistrates court
I'm no expert in these cases, so I won't presume to give a view. However I believe that flashing amber is only used on pelican crossings. At road junctions, the sequence goes red, followed by red and amber together, and you are not supposed to go. You should only proceed when green is showing.
Re: Summons for failing to comply with a red light (crossed on flashin amber) - legal advice for magistrates court
You are quite correct.
This light IS a pelican crossing - as I said lights only to to just amber after red if it is a pelican crossing and it is flashing amber, there is no solid amber after red
Even the police seem to be confused by this fact - most likely because the junction is 20m after the crossing - unusual for them to be so close, yet it is still a crossing only, not a set of lights at the junction.
HSBC Claim: £342 - settlement of £300 offered and accepted before court procedings started
Re: Summons for failing to comply with a red light (crossed on flashin amber) - legal advice for magistrates court
Surely one of the most important facts being overlooked here, is in who's lane did the collision actually take place? From the way you describe it, the car turned right and immediately had to avoid or overtake a bus. In doing so did she cross the central white line into your lane? If so, the majority, if not all of the blame must rest with her for crossing into your lane without fully checking the lane was clear and free of traffic.
Even if the lights were still on red as she claims, they would have to be on red from her side too. How was she going to complete the passing manouvre past the bus and get herself correctly back on her side of the road before reaching the pelican crossing?
edit
OK just re-read your post and see now she wasn't coming towards the crossing herself so my last paragraph isnt valid.
Re: Summons for failing to comply with a red light (crossed on flashin amber) - legal advice for magistrates court
I agree Al27.
At the very least, the "offence" you are being accused of took place some 20 yards or so from the junction. Unless you are some type of super-human cyclists, assuming you reached a speed of around 15mph quite quickly, it would take between 3 to 5 seconds to cover those 20yards. I fail to see how the car driver can have any defence against not seeing you before SHE ENTERED YOUR LANE
Re: Summons for failing to comply with a red light (crossed on flashin amber) - legal advice for magistrates court
I am going to disagree with everyone. As the OP said:
"I do not dispute that the light was red 1 second before I crossed it,"
He/she admits it was a red light before crossed. The OP should have been travelling at a speed where they could stop if the lights changed.
Guilty as charged.
Re: Summons for failing to comply with a red light (crossed on flashin amber) - legal advice for magistrates court
GWC. I think you have misunderstood the OP and the situation.
The traffic lights did not change from yellow to red as he approached, they were ALREADY red and changed to flashing yellow as he approached. The fact that they were red one second before he crossed is irrelevent. He saw them change to yellow and knew he was entitled to pass over the pedestrian crossing provided he could see that the crossing was clear of pedestrians (which he has said that he could).
The OP was familiar with the crossing and anticipated (correctly) that they would change from red to flashing yellow as he hit the crossing but was still prepared to stop in the event that they did not.
In my opinion, the OP has complied with the law and the only way that the witness who was waiting on cycle for the lights to change could state catagorically that the lights were red is if he/she was staring at them at the time the OP passed over the crossing.
MBNA - Agreed to refund £970 in full without conditions. Cheque received Sat 5th Aug.
Lloyds - Settled for an undisclosed sum.
Re: Summons for failing to comply with a red light (crossed on flashin amber) - legal advice for magistrates court
Originally Posted by gwc1000
I am going to disagree with everyone. As the OP said:
"I do not dispute that the light was red 1 second before I crossed it,"
He/she admits it was a red light before crossed. The OP should have been travelling at a speed where they could stop if the lights changed.
Guilty as charged.
Why would he need to stop "if the lights changed"? The only change possible was AWAY from red, not ONTO red.
What the colour was one second before he crossed is irrelavent, it is the colour it was as and after he crossed that matters.
All of this talk about the pedestrian lights is irrelavent anyway as the collision did not take place at the crossing. It took place at the junction 20 yards after the crossing. A car driver made a right turn across oncoming traffic (the oncoming traffic being the OP on his bike) and caused a crash.
Therefore simm1701 is innocent as charged, and the car driver is guilty IMO.
Re: Summons for failing to comply with a red light (crossed on flashin amber) - legal advice for magistrates court
Originally Posted by RichardM
GWC. I think you have misunderstood the OP and the situation.
Ooo-er missus! You're right, I did get the wrong end of the stick. I have re-read the OP's version, and I can see know that they were in the right.
Apologies to all
Re: Summons for failing to comply with a red light (crossed on flashin amber) - legal advice for magistrates court
Originally Posted by Al27
At 30mph, according to my calculations, you would be 14.6 yards in front of the lights 1 second before.
He was on a cycle Al, I very much doubt he was doing 30mph!
From the OPs description, bearing in mind he was aware of the light sequence and was "prepared to stop if necessary" if it stayed red, I reckon he was probably at 10mph or less and could well have been within a couple of yards of the light when it changed to flashing amber, just as he anticipated it would.
Re: Summons for failing to comply with a red light (crossed on flashin amber) - legal advice for magistrates court
Originally Posted by Jamberson
I'm no expert in these cases, so I won't presume to give a view. However I believe that flashing amber is only used on pelican crossings. At road junctions, the sequence goes red, followed by red and amber together, and you are not supposed to go. You should only proceed when green is showing.
No.
On a pelican crossing, the sequence is red, flashing amber, green, amber, red.
Road traffic has right of way on green, and must stop on amber and red. When showing flashing amber, road traffic may proceed if the crossing is clear of pedestrians.
Re: Summons for failing to comply with a red light (crossed on flashin amber) - legal advice for magistrates court
Originally Posted by patdavies
No.
On a pelican crossing, the sequence is red, flashing amber, green, amber, red.
Road traffic has right of way on green, and must stop on amber and red. When showing flashing amber, road traffic may proceed if the crossing is clear of pedestrians.
I don't even think that is true. Green gives permission to proceed if the road is clear and it is safe to do so. It does not give a "right of way".
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Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.
The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.
I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.
Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.
Re: Summons for failing to comply with a red light (crossed on flashin amber) - legal advice for magistrates court
Originally Posted by citizenkain
Bottom line,if your on a bicycle or a motorbike wait for a GREEN light cos you will come off worse in an impact.
If you wait for the green at a pelican light crossing, you are highly likely to get the car behind you running you over as they expected you to move!!
At a pelican, the flashing amber means you can proceed if the crossing is clear and safe. If you sat there like a prat throughout the flashing sequence you will
a) agrivate other roads users around you
or
b) get knocked off by someone expecting you to move
and
c) be given at least a driving fault on a driving test if not potentially a fail (if the examiner thought your hesitation was dangerous)
Summons for failing to comply with a red light (crossed on flashing amber) - legal advice for magistrates court
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Originally Posted by gwc1000
