Thread: points on license, valid for 3 yrs, cant remove till 4th year and insurance companies.

Whilst reading some other posts regarding fixed points/fines etc I have a quick question.

I received an SP30, 3 points and £60 fine back in Feb of 2006. I was told they would be valid on my license for 3 years. Forward to Feb of 2009 and I ask for them to be removed but DVLA wants them to stay on for another year? WHY?

Also, when insuring my car, they ask if I have had any driving offences or convictions in the last 5 years. When these point get removed, will I still have to declare them?

Just had a letter to say Im going to have another 3 points and £60 fine for the same type of offence and insurance is due. Got quotes for both 3 and 6 points and even though the price difference was only about £20...it all adds up. Best to declare I guess so insurance is valid.

I'm not an expert jotto, but years ago they used to be called 'endorsements', and they stayed on your licence for 3 years. When the points system came into force, they stay on your licence for 4 years, and as far as I know, always have done.
I dont know why insurance companies ask for 5 years of history.
And slow down a bit, then you would'nt get the points in the first place.
jed

It is true that points are valid for 3 years but stay on your license for 4 years before you can have them removed. Beyond the 3 years though, these points do not contribute to any "totting-up" value.

some points last longer than 3 years for totting up. it depends on the offence.

It's still called am endorsement - just the penalty points vary (IOW, a licence is endorsed with a number of penalty points).

For an SP30, you would have received an endorsement of 3 penalty points.

These are valid from the date of offence, not the date of conviction.

They remain valid for totting up for 3 years
They remain on the licence for 4 years
For insurance, the validity of the points is irrelevant, they can go back 5 years under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.

Points for other offences vary as to the time they stay on the licence and the time from which they become active.

The answer is simple. If the insurers ask the uncomplicated question 'Have had any convictions in the past five years?', then the answer is 'yes'. They may also ask if you have any prosections pending and once again the answer is 'yes'.

Usually the next question on the form asks for details.

Originally Posted by Fair-Parking

They may also ask if you have any prosections pending and once again the answer is 'yes'.

Why?

There is nothing in the OP's post about any forthcoming prosecution. only a query about removing points form his licence.

And no prosecution is pending until a summons or FPN is issued; prior to that it is merely a Police investigation.``

See post 1 last paragraph. Prosecutions pending start when alleged offence is first logged, not when you get written to confirm that it is happening. It's the possibility of prosecution that insurance companies have requested knowledge of - at least since I first started with them back in '66.

Originally Posted by Fair-Parking

See post 1 last paragraph.

Fair enough - missed that

Prosecutions pending start when alleged offence is first logged, not when you get written to confirm that it is happening. It's the possibility of prosecution that insurance companies have requested knowledge of - at least since I first started with them back in '66.

Logged by whom?

When the speed camera fires?
When the SCP examine the film?
When the first NIP is sent?
No.

There is no pending prosecution until a CoFP or summon is sent. Logically, you may not know about any alleged offence until the NIP arrives - and that is no guarantee of prosecution. Even if you respond to the NIP, naming yourself, the matter may well be dealt with by a speed awareness course that does not involve prosecution (or require notification to insurers).

In the policeman's book. By then you know!

I agree with Pat.

There isn't any law involved with declarations on an insurance proposal form. You are merely asking somebody to insure you, which they can refuse to if they wish. Once cover has been granted, this a private matter governed by a civil contract, To that end the companies feel that they need all the information they can obtain from you in order to assess the risk they may or may not choose to take on.

We didn't have NIP's, camera or other things in '66, but the question was still asked.

If you don't know that you are likely to be prosecuted then the answer to question is simply 'no', but that must change when you do know that there is likely to be a prosecution pending.

The OP knew he was about to be prosecuted.

Common Misconceptions on these messages:-

1) Insurers can ask what they want to assess risk and you have to answer them honestly as it is a contract of utmost faith.

Yes they can ask anything they like. BUT, the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, section 3(a) states that THERE IS NO DUTY TO ANSWER if it would reveal a Spent Conviction.

2) Points "stay" on your licence for three / four / eleven years.

In fact, the points (which are part of the "endorsement" on your licence) will "stay" on your licence until you renew it or have them removed, after they have expired. This could be ten, twenty or more years if you don't renew your licence.

HOWEVER, if you receive more points for a new conviction, with points already on your licence, then a court will (in the absence of exceptional circumstances) disqualify you if you have 12 points amassed within three years (the dates of the points being the dates of the offences). This is where the THREE years comes into play.

After this time has passed, the points have no relevance in themselves, other than as an indication of your driving record to anybody who sees them, but isn't acting in an official capacity. People acting in an official capacity (whether that be insurers, the police, the courts or whomever) should not be concerned with points but with the convictions which gave rise to the points.

It therefore doesn't really matter how long they stay on your licence. HOWEVER, once they expire, you can have them removed if you wish, by applying to the DVLA.

After FOUR years from the INCIDENT most of the "routine" points can be removed from your licence.

Some more serious offences provide that the points can not be removed until FOUR years from the date of the CONVICTION IN COURT (which will obviously be after the incident took place, although usually there is only a few months extra)

The most serious offences, including drink driving, provide that the points can not be removed until ELEVEN years after the conviction.

However, the points and the endorsement still have no relevance after the THREE YEARS TOTTING UP period.

3) You have to declare points for five years.

Points in themselves mean nothing. However, what they do signify, is the existence of a conviction for an offence. Questions revealing a conviction can be restricted under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. It therefore follows that you don't have to declare points at all if it would reveal a "spent" conviction.

A conviction can become "spent" unless you commit another offence within the "rehabilitation period" for that conviction. (As you can see it gets quite complicated).

The "rehabilitation period" is not connected in any way with the offence itself: it is the SENTENCE / PUNISHMENT for that offence that is relevant, and points have NO BEARING on this.

For a fine, it is FIVE YEARS.

Therefore, a conviction for speeding, with three points and a £50 fine has to be declared if asked for FIVE YEARS from the CONVICTION.

However, a conviction for dangerous driving, with NO points, but a two week sentence of prison, has to be declared - if asked - for TEN YEARS from the conviction.

ON the other hand, a conviction for No Insurance, with six points, but no fine at all, and a conditional discharge, has to be declared - if asked - for only SIX MONTHS after the end of the discharge. If this expired before insurance renewal, it would NEVER have to be declared to the insurance company.

As you can see, it doesn't follow that the points relate to the rehabilitation period.

good post. can this be made a sticky please ?