Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.
The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights
a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.
This morning's post included a citation from M&S for the full amount of their credit card. I had CCAd them on the 20th March and they replied on 29th April saying that I had signed up for the Chargecard (in 1984) and that any balance from that could be transferred over to the new credit card (ie as far as the credit card was concerned they didnt need anything - and wouldnt have anything). Interestingly they never produced the original Chargecard agreement. So they simply produced the the T&Cs for the credit card, a sample letter advising of "the new product";, sample of the "card carrrier"advising of activation procedures and statements over the last 6 years.
I replied on 11th May by making a Civil Procedure request for a signed copy of any agreement between us. Probably not unreasonably I havent heard back yet.
Anyway the postman today brought a citation for our local sheriff court seeking full payment. it says that M&S have no reason to believe the agreement is broken, or that there are any other actions between the parties and that the court has jurisdiction. More interestingly it goes on to say that on or about 1st December 1984 I entered into a credit card agreement with them and that they will produce this. Two things here -
1. first of all it wasnt for a credit agreement but for their Chargecard (and therefore quite different t&cs I would guess) and
2. secondly it wasnt included in the bundle of papers they sent me on 29th April.
The citation goes on to say that I have failed to maintain payments and they are looking for the full sum.
The papers included allow me to apply for time to pay or to defend this action. Its all headed "Form of citation where time to pay direction or time order may be applied for in the cause of" M&S against me.
Any suggestions about what I might do about this
(1) It is an offence to give a person a credit-token if he has not asked for it.
(2) To comply with subsection (1) a request must be contained in a document signed by the person making the request, unless the credit-token agreement is a small debtor-creditor-supplier agreement.
(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to the giving of a credit-token to a person—
(a) for use under a credit-token agreement already made, or
(b) in renewal or replacement of a credit-token previously accepted by him under a credit-token agreement which continues in force, whether or not varied.
I think this was added way back near 1974 to make sure Credit Card bankers didn't just give these out like confetti or, if they already had, then to fall into line with the new CCA 1974 Act, they had to get people to sign up to an Agreement if they wished to avoid falling out with the new Act.
There may be some scope here to say M&S have breached s51 if they didn't get you to sign up to a New Agreement when they issued the nice new M&S Credit Cards!
If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing!
taking the last one first, Welshmam I have a Barclaycard which goes back about thirty years, and apparently they dont have to come up with the CCA agreement - see http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...-barclays.html . But as you will see there, I was advised helpfully advised how to reply, as you can see there (rather than me resproducing the whole thing)
And yes, I did see this on your M&S thread - very helpful - thanks - and I wrote to them to this effect on the 11th May, but the stuff in the post this morning is dated the 14th, so they probably crossed. I would imagine they will come back with "ah yes, but you still used it". On the other hand, in the letter they sent out in September 2003, the procedure was not for Chargecard holders to opt in (ie to apply for the Mastercard) but to opt out (to write and say "no I dont want it"). They actually make that a positive point in their letter - "I'm sure you will be pleased to know that you dont have to fill in any forms or make any phone calls ...." So 51 (1) would certainly seem to apply. On the other hand, I am not sure about the meaning of 51 (3). Might they argue that sending out all these new credit cards in 2003 was covered by the Chargecard agreements already signed so (1) wouldnt apply?
And no you cant do Civil Procedure in Scotland, but I thought it was worth a try.
I suppose the issues are
I used the Mastercard even though there was no agreement specifically for it (I impliedly agreed) - they say in their letter of 29/4 "as you were made aware by the sample letter enclosed, no new agreement would need to be signed"
But the T&Cs for the two agreements will almost certainly be different, so can one signature support two agreements?
Another interesting thing that has occurred to me since originally posting is that the account number they quote is the number of the Mastercard. BUT they say they will produce the original Chargecard agreement (has to be it if, as they say it goes back to 1984)
I cant remember, but I am pretty sure that the account number for the Chargecard and the one for the Mastercard (which they have quoted) were different
If they have this, why not produce it when I CCAd them back in March? Or will they just come up with a blank agreement for the Chargecard?
I think there is a big difference between the store card and credit card.
Firstly, I'm sure that you could only use the M&S card in their own store whereas the credit card could be used anywhere. Also, my limit on the store card was £500 (I declined any attempts to raise it) and yet they sent me a card with a £5k limit!!
You have to argue that the new card was not issued under s51(3) as it was a totally different animal!!
If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing!
YOu need to send them:
In the XXXX Sheriff Court
Claimant -v- (YOUR NAME)
Claim Number: (CLAIM NUMBER)
Dear XXX
REQUEST FOR INFORMATION
I have received a recent court claim from your organisation. In order to file a defence and counter claim I require some information. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, I request you to provide me with the information and documents detailed below.
I request that the information should be furnished within fourteen days of the receipt of this letter. If you fail to comply, it may hamper proceedings and result in me filing an unnecessary defence or counter claim.
1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.
2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to:
a. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor
b. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with ORIGINAL CREDITOR.
c. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.
d.Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).
e. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.
f. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.
g. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998
h. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.
i. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.
3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court.
I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it may delay or frustrate the equitable resolution of this matter and result in unnecessary cost for both parties.
Yours sincerely,
XXXX (type, don't sign).
I would suggest sending special delivery,
Can you type or post up the full POC's ?
ida x
Cag is a free self-help site. If you are contacted by any other user recommending or offering no win no fee or paid for service, please report this to the site or to a site team member.
CAG depends on donations. Please consider making a donation - however big or small.
Thank you for the advice, and for being so quick. Really appreciate it. Just some points of clarification
Ida, POCs? If I knew what they are I would post them. Can you advise
Re the letter to them, should I add that I want a copy of the agreement that I SIGNED with them? Or is that when an executed credit agreement is?
Welshmam - I was being devil's advocate there (work out a defence by thinking out how they might attack - and it does seem to be this way as they say they are going to produce the 1984 agreement which has to be for a Chargecard). I take all of your points and you are quite right, the Chargecard was quite a different thing - you could only use it in M&S and the credit limit on it (I think mine might have been £750) was a fraction of the Mastercard (which kind of backs up your point about preventing bankers handing these things out like confetti - but as their covering letter shows you actually had to take avoiding action not to get sent one). I would also be willing to be that there are material differences in the T&Cs for the Chargecard and the Mastercard (which makes it all the more interesting that they havent sent a copy of the Chargecard agreement they say they have, and only a copy of the current T&Cs). On the other hand there is section 66 of CCA which says
66.—(1) The debtor shall not be liable under a credit-token agreement for use made of the credit-token by any person unless the debtor had previously accepted the credittoken, or the use constituted an acceptance of it by him.
(2) The debtor accepts a credit-token when—
(a) it is signed, or
(b) a receipt for it is signed, or
(c) it is first used,
either by the debtor himself or by a person who, pursuant to the agreement, is authorised by him to use it.
Plainly if I hadnt used it, we wouldnt be here. So that, I suppose takes us back to "what agreement"?
Cag is a free self-help site. If you are contacted by any other user recommending or offering no win no fee or paid for service, please report this to the site or to a site team member.
CAG depends on donations. Please consider making a donation - however big or small.
66.—(1) The debtor shall not be liable under a credit-token agreement for use made of the credit-token by any person unless the debtor had previously accepted the credittoken, or the use constituted an acceptance of it by him.
(2) The debtor accepts a credit-token when—
(a) it is signed, or
(b) a receipt for it is signed, or
(c) it is first used,
either by the debtor himself or by a person who, pursuant to the agreement, is authorised by him to use it.
Plainly if I hadnt used it, we wouldnt be here. So that, I suppose takes us back to "what agreement"?
I could be wrong here, but I'm wondering if the intention of this clause was more to do with fraud eg what if the card/token was sent and used by someone else because it was lost in transit...who is then liable???
It's natural to explore all avenues, and I'm still learning like yourself, but I would still be referring back to s51(3) as the card shouldn't have been issued in the first place.
As I see it, we all held charge cards and in effect M&S terminated those agreements. They would be on far firmer ground had they insisted their customers returned a form "opting in."
I'm not sure if it was the Debenhams card that did this fairly recently and had their knuckles rapped for it. Will do some digging for you later today and see if I can come up with anything.
If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing!
Yes, completely agree. I suppose I am looking for certainty but if we had that we woudlnt be going to court to see which is the more important - that they issued the card wrongly (and do they have a legal agreement for the new card?) or that by using the new card we impliedly accept the conditions. On the other hand there needs to be legally executed agreement - even 1st credit seem to understand that point.
If you can follow up on your knowledge of Debenhams that would be great. I followed up a bit on Debenhams as well and came across the following-
However this (about Debenhams) is a bit more interesting - Store Cards - Moneyextra.com guides - see the third paragaraph of the section headed "Can my store card become a credit card?" The OFT site says much the same thing (The Office of Fair Trading: Clearer store card conversion for consumers). I would bet that M&S didnt have a term in the Chargecard that allowed them to do this (just a guess) especially when I signed up in 1984 when I would think M&S saw taking credit cards as the last thing they would do.
The last paragraph - The OFT recognises that there may be advantages in replacing a store card with a credit card if the consumer chooses, especially where lower APRs are on offer. The OFT also notes that GE, in line with principles of responsible lending, has taken care to make a proper credit assessment of individual cardholders being invited to change to the credit card and that initially credit limits have remained the same. " -
M&S of course just sent the thing out and you had to "opt out" rather than make a request (as I said this is confirmed by a letter in the bundle of papers they recently sent to me).
But I have saved the best to last - The Treasury Committee Report - House of Commons - Treasury - First Report - see paragraph 127, and in particular the reference to new cards only being activated by a phone call. The sample letter makes no reference to any phone call. Also paragraph 128 says "The cards should not be activated without the explicit consent of the customer" (my emphasis), so that undermines a bit the problem I was pointing to re section 61(3).
But of course none of that is law - only government policy, House of Commons reports
if you are needing help then Bettle is just a little in front of you with m&s, I'm sure if you PM'd Beetle, they would help and also Monty on the above thread as well.
Ida x
Cag is a free self-help site. If you are contacted by any other user recommending or offering no win no fee or paid for service, please report this to the site or to a site team member.
CAG depends on donations. Please consider making a donation - however big or small.
OK thanks Ida.
As you might know, I have pmd Beetle 1234 and Monty 2007 (well you will know about the first one as I copied you in on it). Hopefully between us we can resist this. Did you have a look at POCs that I posted (these were POCs werent they?) If so, was there anything particular about them that you could see?
I have prepared your "information request letter" and it will go in the post tomorrow.
Welshmam, any thing you have re Debenhams'. I hope the stuff that i dug up was of interest.
Thanks again to you both. I will chart progress (or otherwise) on this thread.
Could you clarify (approx) how much they are suing you for?
It sounds like an Ordinary Cause Action from what you have said. You should have received a writ and Form O7 (notice of intention to defend) and a form that essentially allows you to admit and pay.
From what you also state in your PM I think you should defend so you will need to respond to the Sheriff Court with Form O7 completed and they will charge you £75 for the privilege of defending yourself (outrageous I know!). This is all you need to do for now, the nest stage is the Defence and you have three weeks from the end of the current notice period.
If you could post up the writ which will include their Condescendence - their statement in an action setting forth the grounds of action of the Pursuer and pleas-in-law. The Condescendence will be numbered, the first stating that they have the right to sue you in the Scottish courts and the second/third ones stating the details of the writ. When we defend we will answer each of these, failure to do so means that you admit that particular statement.
You have posted this up in plenty of time and once you complete and return Form O7 you will then have three weeks to submit a defence and your pleas-in-law. I can help you with this. Could you also confirm:
1. If you have a default notice
2. If they have terminated
3. Any fees or late payment charges on the account since you may want to consider a counter claim for these.
The Scottish process is very different from that in England jurisdiction but the statues and case laws are the same. You just need to get familiar with the process and I suggest you get hold of a copy of Civil Procedure and Practice by Hennessy, Charles ISBN 0414012836. I found this book very useful
I suggest you blank out your personal details and post up the relevant docs, I can then suggest how you may want to defend and what I have done/know with regards to my own case which is coming up for a legal debate on their pleas and my defences.
Hi Monty, thanks for getting back so quickly
They are suing for £12k + expenses
I have posted the first page (form 05) here poem192.jpg picture by soccerdoc - Photobucket and the second page at poem193.jpg picture by soccerdoc - Photobucket for you to have a look. The actual writ is at POC1 picture by soccerdoc - Photobucket 2. POC2 picture by soccerdoc - Photobucket.
Do I simply return O7 at this stage (with £80 btw) and then have 21 days to lodge reasons for defence/pleas in law? Or should I wait and put both in at once?
Do I have a default notice - not really sure. Sorry but I am not good at keeping these things (head just coming above ground, if you know what I mean), but I dont think anything arrived called "default notice". I did get a "statutory arrears notice" from them on the 18th March (same day as the account is marked as having gone to to solicitors, if that's significant at all?) You can see the statutory arrears notice at poem195.jpg picture by soccerdoc - Photobucket. In any event it has an inaccuracy as it says that they have sent this when the last two minimum payments havent been received. I didnt pay them (couldnt) since July 2008. Dont know why they would say that?
However, I have also written them Ida's "information request letter" so if they have sent a default notice, it should be part of that bundle. They stopped adding interest on 18th March and "passed to solicitors" (it says in the statements that they sent to me).
There are £60 of fees in the last few months before it went to their solicitors -late payment, overlimit etc - would you believe 5 of them (ie 5 times 12)? Compared to the rest not a priority imo.
If there is anything else you need to know, just tell me.And thank you so much for your help.
Yes you need to submit form O7 and the Court fee, I would do this in person if you can.
Or should I wait and put both in at once?
No, you will have plenty of time for the defence and no need to rush
Do I have a default notice - not really sure. Sorry but I am not good at keeping these things (head just coming above ground, if you know what I mean), but I dont think anything arrived called "default notice". I did get a "statutory arrears notice" from them on the 18th March (same day as the account is marked as having gone to to solicitors, if that's significant at all?) You can see the statutory arrears notice at poem195.jpg picture by soccerdoc - Photobucket. In any event it has an inaccuracy as it says that they have sent this when the last two minimum payments havent been received. I didnt pay them (couldnt) since July 2008. Dont know why they would say that?
Not sure either, if you can find the DN it would help since they may have messed it up which will be in your favour.
However, I have also written them Ida's "information request letter" so if they have sent a default notice, it should be part of that bundle. They stopped adding interest on 18th March and "passed to solicitors" (it says in the statements that they sent to me).
No disrespect to Ida but it is likely that they will completely ignore your letter requesting information. There are no CPR rules in Scotland and the Pursuer (and Defender for that matter) must submit any documents to the other side and Sheriff that they refer to in their writ or defence.
If they or you don't then you can't use them. During the adjustments phase the Pursuers will submit an Inventory of Productions which will contain all that they seek to rely on in court
There are £60 of fees in the last few months before it went to their solicitors -late payment, overlimit etc - would you believe 5 of them (ie 5 times 12)? Compared to the rest not a priority imo.
If there is anything else you need to know, just tell me.And thank you so much for your help.
HELP Court Papers from M&S
.
Reply With Quote
Re: HELP Court Papers from M&S
Originally Posted by seriously fed up
to see which is the more important - that they issued the card wrongly (and do they have a legal agreement for the new card?) or that by using the new card we impliedly accept the conditions. On the other hand there needs to be legally executed agreement - even 
) on this thread.