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Just received a summons alleging that I didn't have a ticket entitling travel and would appreciate any advice. I had an open return ticket that had not expired, which I showed to the FCC inspector when he asked for my ticket. He told me that he was going to give me a penalty notice. I asked why as I thought it was valid, and he said that it wasn't and had been used. The ticket had been used (it was from Liverpool to Stevenage) as I had travelled from Liverpool to Euston but didn't return to Stevenage that day. A couple of weeks later, I was in London and I used the ticket at the barrier at Moorgate ( it let me through) and when I was stopped by the inspector I thought my ticket was valid. I gave him my details, as he said he would check whether I had to pay the notice. When I got off the train he mentioned a caution and tried to stop me leaving the station. I got upset and asked why he was arresting me, and I asked whether I was free to go and if not whether i could have a solicitor. I got a letter from the prosecution manager asking me what happened and I explained this and have now received a summons. I'm really upset , especially as the statement says I did not have the means to pay and that I walked away when they asked me questions. They never asked me those questions, as I had given all the information they asked for on the train. Do I have a defence? What can I do?
Thank you very much
He told me that he was going to give me a penalty notice. I asked why as I thought it was valid, and he said that it wasn't and had been used. The ticket had been used (it was from Liverpool to Stevenage) as I had travelled from Liverpool to Euston but didn't return to Stevenage that day. A couple of weeks later, I was in London and I used the ticket at the barrier at Moorgate
You tried to use the ticket twice.
Originally Posted by Scaredsheep
Do I have a defence?
Nope, byelaw 18 is strict liability, the same as insurance, you either have it or you dont.
You really should have paid the penalty when it was offered, then you could have appealed it later.
Its probably going to be an expensive mistake on your part.
Result! Fortunately I did not take the advice offered here and made my own enquiries.
I got a copy of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage , which confirmed that I was entitled to break and resume my journey at any station. This is what I had thought and was belittled for 10 minutes on the train by 2 very rude ticket inspectors for not knowing the rules.
I then e-mailed the customer relations section of the relevant train company to ask whether I was entitled to do as I did, and they confirmed that I was. I then sent the e-mail to the Prosecutions Dept. who have withdrawn the prosecution.
I gather that there are a number of staff with this particular company who don't know the rules. I am just so glad that I stuck to my guns. I wonder how many other people would have assumed the ticket inspectors were trained in the rules and were right and would have pleaded guilty to a criminal offence.
I am now writing to the Director of this company to draw his staff's ignorance and rudeness to his attention.
Moral - do not be bullied.
Please explain something to me, you had a ticket from Liverpool to Stevenage and used it to travel to Euston.
You then used the return portion (Stevenage to Liverpool) from Moorgate to Stevenage?
Bearing in mind that Stevenage is in Herts, how would your ticket been valid for you to take a break in London?
Good for you for getting out of it, but I think its got more to do with the customer services f**king up than the inspectors not knowing the rules, unless of course your ticket was valid Liverpool to Stevenage via London.....
This break of journey rule is misused to say the least.
I have once had someone with a open return which had 4 different dates stamped on it.
Now he pleaded break of journey. If I had have accepted it there and then he would have got away with it, but I cautioned him and he finally admitted he had actually used the same ticket 7 times.
Back to your situation, I know the staff you are talking about. There are a group of around 12 people which go around in pairs or threes and harass passengers. These staff have been reported numerous times to director level but they do not care as they are bringing in around 200-300 PF's a week. 300X£20 = £6k. Thats the bare minimum they could get.
If you want to PM me, I can give you further details about this group, I will not post them on a public forum.
Please explain something to me, you had a ticket from Liverpool to Stevenage and used it to travel to Euston.
You then used the return portion (Stevenage to Liverpool) from Moorgate to Stevenage?
Bearing in mind that Stevenage is in Herts, how would your ticket been valid for you to take a break in London?
Good for you for getting out of it, but I think its got more to do with the customer services f**king up than the inspectors not knowing the rules, unless of course your ticket was valid Liverpool to Stevenage via London.....
The last line is right. Its a First Anytime Return valid any permitted route, break and resume journey at any station. As you probably know any ticket via London is usually more expensive, but from my point of view its worth it as the journeys are usually quicker and involve less change of train.
Train Liverpool to Euston ( Virgin) tube from Euston to Kings Cross, Highbury Islington, Finsbury Park or Moorgate ( to name a few) and from that tube station to Stevenage on FCC. Moorgate or Kings Cross are the best for Stevenage as the train is direct and you don't need to change at FP etc.
The thing which upset me was that the staff were admant that return journeys had to be completed within 24 hours, which is not true for an Anytime Return. It must be completed, obviously, before the expiry date.
Just glad its done with, and I think if I ever have to use a FCC route again, I'll arm myself with the Rules and take full notes. It's put me off FCC though.
Would it be possible for you to post an image of the ticket on here so that I can familiarise myself with this type of ticket as I've never seen one.
Thanks
Would it be possible for you to post an image of the ticket on here so that I can familiarise myself with this type of ticket as I've never seen one.
Thanks
Unfortunately not, it was taken from me by the ticket person, but it would have been "eaten" by the ticket barrier at Stevenage if it hadn't been taken from me. It was clearly marked "First Anytime Return" and at the bottom of the ticket it said "route" "any permitted" . Some tickets say "not via London" but mine was "any permitted." I guess this is why it let me through the ticket barrier at Moorgate. These tickets are particularly good if you are not sure of precise travel times/dates and avoid having to queue at Euston for another ticket etc. especially if incoming trains are delayed. They are also a boon if you get travel sick and need to get off one train and have a break or breath of fresh air before continuing.
Of course, they are much more expensive than standard tickets, but flexibility comes at a price.
If you look on any train ticket website or trainline etc. and go through the process of finding a route and ticket there will be a variety of ticket options and if you click the terms and conditions will come up. Also a ticket machine will do this if you click on the information button for ticket types.
"any permitted" does not mean you can travel on any route, it means "any permitted route" i.e. a route that is written in the fares manual.
Its a common misconception.
"any permitted" does not mean you can travel on any route, it means "any permitted route" i.e. a route that is written in the fares manual.
Its a common misconception.
Absolutely. But type in via Moorgate on a journey from Stevenage to Liverpool on trainline or national rail enquiries and it works out a journey and price for you. Journey via Moorgate comes up and the 1st Anytime Return via London (Moorgate) is £419.00, as mc661 said.
It just depends which time you want to travel and on your connections as to which rail/underground station its best to change at. Also Finsbury Park with its spiral stair case and no escalator is a bit of a nightmare if you've got luggage and a buggy or are a bit unsteady on your feet.
As I said, I thought the ticket had to be valid because it let me through the barrier at Moorgate.
It wasn't the route that was the problem for the ticket inspectors, or the break of journey - they were just insistent that the journey had to be complete within 24 hours. When I asked where in the national conditions it said this, I was told that it was "common sense."
If the staff , who presumably have some training don't know the rules, it's harder on the customers, who don't have ready access to the fares manual, but rely on the accuracy of the conditions of carriage and the information provided online and at ticket machines.
"any permitted" does not mean you can travel on any route, it means "any permitted route" i.e. a route that is written in the fares manual.
Its a common misconception.
Wrong in part, its not the fares manual that states the the routes. Its the National Routing Guide that states the valid routes. Using various routing points. Now you need a doctorate to understand the NRG, hence why its not publicly available, yet still is a public document.
Liverpool GroupStevenage GroupLONDONER+BP+LCER+BP+LC+MLER+LYER+LY+MLER+NL+ML ER+PSER+PS+MLER+PS+NLER+SH+PSER+SH+PS+MLER+TPER+TP+MLER+WK+LYER+WK+LY+MLER+WK+LY+NLER+WK+TPER+WK+TP+ML
These are the valid permitted routes (maps are listed at this link Index of Routeing Guide Maps) . So needless to say there are a huge number of valid routes.
oh dear trainspotter alert.
The NRG not being available to most staff let alone customers is a useless document in this matter.
However the fares manual (which is now also stored on most PDAs) does have routings in & is easy to navigate.
Im not going to get involved any further in this discussion because the subject is beyond boring, infact id rather hammer nails into my own eyes than talk RSP.
oh dear trainspotter alert.
The NRG not being available to most staff let alone customers is a useless document in this matter.
However the fares manual (which is now also stored on most PDAs) does have routings in & is easy to navigate.
Im not going to get involved any further in this discussion because the subject is beyond boring, infact id rather hammer nails into my own eyes than talk RSP.
Haha I'm not a train spotter, I'm actually ex revenue.
The NRG is a very useful document, if it was useless why do Atoc continue to update it? Last update was a couple of months ago.
The NRG can be found at atoc.org so I fail to see how staff cannot access it.
As for the PDA (avb2) it does not tell you permitted routes, e.g. It does not say that a Liverpool stns to stevenage is valid via Manchester, Sheffield, then MML to st pancras and then to stevenage or that it is valid via chiltern into marylebone.
It does tell you the ticket restrictions, time restrictions.
How many staff have internet enabled mobile phones? I know of a TOC who are giving selected staff iPhones to access disruption information and these will be fully mobile internet enabled.
How many staff can access the atoc website from the computers in their mess room?
Oh and then there's always the booking office computers, which are internet enabled.
summons for 18(1)
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Originally Posted by Scaredsheep
