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My daughter was forced to move out of her home via a Court Order from her ex boyfriend. Long story but the jist is that the house is currently unoccuppied - he moved out well over two years ago, she had to move out 5 months ago. He changed the locks when she had gone.
She had all her post redirected to my home as we didn't know where she was going to end up. Some of her post has turned up here without the redirect stickers on as one of the posties knew her circumstances. However, it transpires that some of her post is obviously still being delivered there. How do I know.....
He ex boyfriends girlfriend has just offered 4 concert tickets for sale on my son's car club forum, stating the date, venue and time. There were two posts, one asking for "Offers" and the other going on to say that if they remained unsold they were going to go on ebay. What should the next course of action be.
I have to express a certain amount of caution as my daughter had to declare herself bankrupt - the house and piece of land they jointly owned are subject of a creditors meeting being held soon. We're not sure if the ex is attending, though my daughter owes him no money at all. His parents think she does because they secured their home against the monies borrowed for the house and land and said previously that if the two properties did not clear the debt they would persue my daughter. With the current climate she would have had a shortfall of around £60,000 on a joint mortgage with her ex. Her home was unmortgaged (as said, security held on a separate property) so whilst she didn't want to lose her home she now wants a fresh start.
As I said, it's a long, complex story, made worse by an ex who can't/won't let go, whose girlfriend has done nothing but cause problems, including reporting my daughter to the police for threats that never actually happened, they've used the car club forum to harrass her and work out when she's not at home in order to "pay a visit", keyed my daughter's new boyfriends car etc. No proof, nothing can be done.
I'm sorry it sound like gobbledegook but the last 2.5 years have not been easy.
An answer to the subject title would suffice! Gave some background soas to let you know that the post could not have been opened "accidently"
Interfering with mail - Postal Services Act 2000 Section 84
Triable Summarily (Magistrates court)
6 Months and or a fine (Max)
A person commits an offence if they without reasonable excuse intentionally delay or open a postal packet in the course of transmission by post or intentionally opens a mail bag.
A person commits an offence if, intending to act to a person's detriment and without reasonable excuse, opens a postal packet which they know or suspect to have been delivered incorrectly.
If you work for the Post service you could commit other offences under Section 83 triable either way (Magistrates or Crown court) and get a sentence of 2 years and or a fine.
However, the offence only exists whilst mail is 'in the course of transmission' - which is defined in the Act as ceasing once the postal packet has been delivered to the address (not the addressee).
So it would be an offence for anybody at the sorting office to open it, but once it is delivered, anybody can open it.
Thank wino and patdavies. Age old adage there - you give with one hand and take with the other!
So, what about the tickets - could we presume they are stolen? The tickets arrived last week, the concert is on 26th of this in Birmingham, one of them being mine!!! My daughter paid by debit card for them back in October/November, unfortunately the fanclub must still have had her old address.
What redress, if any, does she have with Royalmail? She paid for a service that obviously hasn't been carried out fully.
However, the offence only exists whilst mail is 'in the course of transmission' - which is defined in the Act as ceasing once the postal packet has been delivered to the address (not the addressee).
So it would be an offence for anybody at the sorting office to open it, but once it is delivered, anybody can open it.
Hi
Is there a stated case that says once the packet is delivered (ie through the letter box and on the floor) it is no longer in transmission?
Couldn't the fact that the letter is inside an envelope be considered to be part of the transmission?
the offence only exists whilst mail is 'in the course of transmission' - which is defined in the Act as ceasing once the postal packet has been delivered to the address (not the addressee).
That only relates to the first part of the snippet which has been posted. The second part relates to an item which has been delivered:
Originally Posted by wino
A person commits an offence if they without reasonable excuse intentionally delay or open a postal packet in the course of transmission by post or intentionally opens a mail bag.
A person commits an offence if, intending to act to a person's detriment and without reasonable excuse, opens a postal packet which they know or suspect to have been delivered incorrectly.
Originally Posted by Ingrid
What redress, if any, does she have with Royalmail? She paid for a service that obviously hasn't been carried out fully.
The short answer is that she has very little redress. There are provisions in the Act which protect Royal Mail from liability for failings such as this.
Opinions given herein are made informally by myself as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.
"Some people say The Stig chews on spark plugs and drifts while walking. Some say he is terrified of ducks, and that there is an airport in Russia named after him. All we know is that he is really barracad from The Consumer Action Group" - Jeremy Clarkson (allegedly)
The short answer is that she has very little redress. There are provisions in the Act which protect Royal Mail from liability for failings such as this.
Okay. She's just phoned and said that Ticketmaster won't do anything. The tickets were sent Special Delivery. Now, there's no-one living at the property, neither neighbour would have signed for it and posted it into an empty house so....
we can only assume the postie didn't get a valid signature or..
he left a Special Delivery card and someone else, ie. the girlfriend, fraudulently collected or signed for on my daughter's behalf
Think RoyalMail are getting a stinking phone call and letter and probably time to contact the police.
Thanks for all your help.
Still can't get my head round the fact that, once delivered, someone can take the contents of a letter that does not have their name on and keep the contents when there is proof that she has the tickets. She's posted on the forum the date, time, venue and designated area of the tickets.
Is there a stated case that says once the packet is delivered (ie through the letter box and on the floor) it is no longer in transmission?
Couldn't the fact that the letter is inside an envelope be considered to be part of the transmission?
No. There is no stated case; it is made clear in the Act.
Postal Services Act 200 s.125(3)
(3) For the purposes of this Act—
(a) a postal packet shall be taken to be in course of transmission by post from the time of its being delivered to any post office or post office letter box to the time of its being delivered to the addressee,
(b) the delivery of a postal packet of any description to a letter carrier or other person authorised to receive postal packets of that description for the post or to a person engaged in the business of a postal operator to be dealt with in the course of that business shall be a delivery to a post office, and
(c) the delivery of a postal packet— (i) at the premises to which it is addressed or redirected, unless they are a post office from which it is to be collected,
(ii) to any box or receptacle to which the occupier of those premises has agreed that postal packets addressed to persons at those premises may be delivered, or
(iii) to the addressee’s agent or to any other person considered to be authorised to receive the packet, shall be a delivery to the addressee.
A person commits an offence if, intending to act to a person's detriment and without reasonable excuse, opens a postal packet which they know or suspect to have been delivered incorrectly.
Then Mens Rea comes into play. Mere interference is insufficient, intent must be proven.
we can only assume the postie didn't get a valid signature
If you get the tracking number from Ticketmaster, you will be able to view the signature on the Royal Mail website.
Opinions given herein are made informally by myself as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.
"Some people say The Stig chews on spark plugs and drifts while walking. Some say he is terrified of ducks, and that there is an airport in Russia named after him. All we know is that he is really barracad from The Consumer Action Group" - Jeremy Clarkson (allegedly)
once you have established that the signature isnt true, call ticketmaster and get them to cancel the tickets and re issue/refund, Alternatively, if the debit card is a visa one, I think that you can get your money back through them, I would also report it to the police.
Lula
Lula v Abbey - Settled Lula v Abbey (2) - Settled Lula v Abbey (3) - Stayed
Grab a screen shot of the forum post where he's offering it for sale, as well as a screenshot of his account (i.e click on his username).
I work for DSGi plc
(aka currys, pcworld, dixons)
Anything said by me, are not the opinions of CAG and are mine alone. I have nothing to do with the legal system in any way, the majority of my information will reflect a common sense approach.
So please seek advice from a professional if in any doubt.
I have printed off the two posts she (being the ex's girlfriend, who may have access via my daughter's ex, iykwim) posted, asking for offers and then offering to put on ebay. This has her username on, which was confirmed as the girl in question last December by her local police when my daughter received a phone call citing that this other girl had made a complaint that my daughter had been making threats to her - this is absolutely and categorically incorrect and my daughter told the PC on the phone. Her exact words were "she means nothing to me so why would I threaten her"
Anyway, my daughter contacted TicketMaster - they have yet to hand over the consignment no. I know when I have been to collect I only have to produce proof of my own id, not the person I am collecting on behalf of!
The fact that RoyalMail have entered into a contract with my daughter to redirect her post is another issue, and one that she is taking up with them. She has told me that she emailed them, telling them how "p****d off" she is!
Ticketmaster will not cancel the tickets as they are only General Admission, what difference that makes I don't know. I find it hard to believe that the tickets cannot be cancelled! No sure if they would argue that they were delivered and signed for (but fraudulently!)
I think general admission means there are no allocated seats or a standing only gig.
Did she buy these tickets on a credit card? Surely if you buy tickets and they are sent by Speicial Delivery you can get your money back if they don't arrive. They might send out another set but unfortunately only to the original address - which would hopefully be properly redirected this time.
Is it an offence to open someone else's mail
. What should the next course of action be.
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Originally Posted by patdavies
