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Croydon, Church Street, in front of Argos. No parking allowed anywhere on that narrow road as this is where the trams run and a car plonked at the wrong place can really stop the whole thing. There are however loading bays with a 30 mns period.
On Friday, I went to collect some goods (reserved online), my receipt shows 16.32. Force of habit, I put up my BB on show, although I know it doesn't apply on these bays.
Came back to a ticket:
(25) parked in a loading place during restricted hours without loading.
Contravention issued at 16.31, observation from 16.26 to 16.31.
Now I had a bit of a trawl and it would seem that the 5 mns observation window in which loading must be observed is the nub of it.
I am planning on making representations of course against the ticket, as I was in fact loading, and my Argos receipt itself should be sufficient (one would hope, but this is Croydon after all), but was also thinking of pointing out that the 5 mns they allocate for observation are quite discriminatory for the less able. Put it this way, even if the goods were placed on the counter (back of the store), for me to get there, pick up the goods and get back to my car can not be done in 5 mns!!! (Come to think of it, I don't know that even a fully able person could since by definition if you're loading, you're going to be carrying a load which slows you down).
What really winds me up is that seeing the times, the PA must have been watching me shuffle in Argos, can't have missed the BB on the dashboard and still chose to ticket me. And they wonder why they are so despised...
Apologies to people who I was in the process of helping, I may be gone some time.
Totally sympathise with you Bookworm. I was ticketed a while back when my car had broken down and had smoke coming out of the engine! The CEO stood by my vehicle and basically said tough! I won out in the end though
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I have the 2 e-mails confirming my reservation. The receipt wouldn't show it but between the 2, it does confirm it, if that makes sense.
Interesting you should say "large", because we're not talking a two hands carryin box thing here, but it was 2 items, one of them fairly heavy. Here's the thing: Since I have a walking stick, I couldn't manage large goods as such, but I still need the car to be near to, yes, load, stuff which I couldn't drag with only one hand otherwise.
Should be interesting to see how CC, not known for their sympathetic approach to the disabled, are going to deal with this one.
(I haven't even started looking into the TROs either! )
Apologies to people who I was in the process of helping, I may be gone some time.
have the 2 e-mails confirming my reservation. The receipt wouldn't show it but between the 2, it does confirm it, if that makes sense.
Interesting you should say "large", because we're not talking a two hands carryin box thing here, but it was 2 items, one of them fairly heavy. Here's the thing: Since I have a walking stick, I couldn't manage large goods as such, but I still need the car to be near to, yes, load, stuff which I couldn't drag with only one hand otherwise.
Should be interesting to see how CC, not known for their sympathetic approach to the disabled, are going to deal with this one.
(I haven't even started looking into the TROs either! )
All sounds good. Submit all the information to the council.
Could you scan in the ticket in the usual manner. There maybe faults on there to add weight tp your appeal.
If they reject I would counter with the disability dicrimination act if they argue loading was not seen to be continuous on a second informal appeal . they should have a disability discrimination policy document in place for for instances such as this.
If there isnt one in place then you can start making things very awkward with complaints to the LGO and the chief executive of the Croyden council
I wish to make representations against the above pcn.
I am registered disabled, and in fact had my blue badge on display at the time of the alleged offence. I am aware that the badge doesn’t give me the right to park in this particular bay, but it is force of habit that I put it on display anyway.
Please see enclosed the proof of both reservation and collection from Argos for the goods I was in fact loading. Also please note the time on the receipt and please compare it to the time on the PCN. It seems that your employee in fact watched me step out of my car and walk, complete with walking stick, into Argos. It is arguable that at that point, seeing the speed at which I walk, he reasonably knew that there was no way I could be back within 5 minutes, and STILL chose to give me a ticket. Still, considering that the bay itself allows for up to 30 mns to load and unload goods, one has to wonder as to why Croydon Council chooses 5 mns as a suitable observation period, apparently in breach of their own signs.
On to the goods I was loading: As you know, there is considerable case law as to what constitutes goods for the purpose of loading/unloading, and there is considerable latitude as regards circumstances. In my case, whilst the goods being loaded were not maybe the biggest, they were fairly heavy and awkward to carry, and you have to remember that I have a walking stick in one hand, which means I can only carry goods with one hand, and I am therefore entirely justified in using the loading bay.
My representations are therefore under the following:
a) I was loading goods, proof of which is enclosed. The fact that your employee didn’t actually see me loading (indeed, how could he? He was gone by the time I came out with the goods) is to be weighed against both the time on the PCN and the Argos receipt which clearly show he COULDN’T have observed me loading simply because he didn’t hang around long enough. I refer you to the case of MACLEOD v WOJKOWSKA, in which the Lord Justice declared that: “Accordingly the proviso covers not merely the acts of loading and unloading in the narrow literal sense but also the taking of the goods into those premises and putting them in some part of those premises; vice versa it covers the taking of goods from some part of the premises, carrying them to the car and putting them on to it.”
b) The criteria of observation of 5 mns is in itself both insufficient for most loading/unloading, especially considering that the loading bay itself gives a maximum period of 30 mns, and furthermore in the case of disabled people, discriminatory, as it places the burden on the disabled person to move as fast as a non-disabled one, which is ridiculous. Your employee can hardly argue ignorance of the fact of my disability, since as previously stated, he must have seen me go into the store and my blue badge was clearly on display. I can only conclude that your employee decided to apply Croydon Council’s rules for observation to the letter, which makes him complicit in that discrimination seemingly actively pursued by Croydon Council.
Yours faithfully,
You can see what their reply was to that... *bangs head against wall*
Apologies to people who I was in the process of helping, I may be gone some time.
Bookworm I cannot see you losing this at adjudication should you decide to take it that far. Most cases regarding loading that reach an adjudicator result in a win for the appellant.
The fact that you displayed a blue badge has no relevance. You are entitled to use the bay for the purpose of loading. You arrived knowing that there was a load to be collected and as soon as the load was loaded you moved your vehicle from the bay.
It is a bit of an urban myth that shopping does not count as loading or unloading. This myth is simply not true. Most traffic regulation orders (if not all) do not detail what is considered a load. It all depends on fact and degree and as a disabled person, what can be considered a load in your case is even more comprehensive.
Loading does include the related paperwork and paying for the goods was related to the process of being able to load your vehicle.
The observation period has no legal standing, it is just a policy introduced by the council so that they are seen to be friendly. It would be unreasonable to expect a CEO to observe for much longer though as otherwise they would not get much work done during a shift. It is often quoted that loading must be continuous but again this is not in any law but is advised by the DfT and in reality it does make sense. So long as you can readily explain why the CEO did not observe you loading in the 5 min period then you should be OK. As you are disabled and were carrying a load a considerable distance and paperwork was involved the 5 minutes is easily explained.
Thanks, TBD (there's a name that could terribly wrong ), that's pretty much what I thought.
The BB being displayed I am aware has no relevance as such, but I do intend to challenge Croydon Council at a later stage about this anyway, as I was working on my letter, I realised that their 5 mns policy is in fact potentially discriminatory, and if there is a way to cause some trouble for them from that point of view, I'd be only too happy, as I find their attitude quite horrific anyway. At least, *I* can walk, what of someone with a worse disability? The more I think of it, the more furious I am, but I do realise that this is a side issue to my problem as it were. Still, never one to do things by halves, me.
Apologies to people who I was in the process of helping, I may be gone some time.
Thanks, TBD (there's a name that could terribly wrong ), that's pretty much what I thought.
The BB being displayed I am aware has no relevance as such, but I do intend to challenge Croydon Council at a later stage about this anyway, as I was working on my letter, I realised that their 5 mns policy is in fact potentially discriminatory, and if there is a way to cause some trouble for them from that point of view, I'd be only too happy, as I find their attitude quite horrific anyway. At least, *I* can walk, what of someone with a worse disability? The more I think of it, the more furious I am, but I do realise that this is a side issue to my problem as it were. Still, never one to do things by halves, me.
Booky I have used on occasion the disability discrimination act to appeal these tickets.
As the CEO clearly saw you he should show this in his notes.
You have clearly demonstrated that you were loading, clearly demonstrated that you are registered disabled. They are using your disability to enforce this ticket by totaly ignoring the main part of your appeal that being an exemtion for loading.
They have ignored your appeal out of hand mate.
I would counter with possibly illegal persuant to the disability dicrimination act by a public authority to start off with in that you have been treated less favourably than an abled bodied person
and further counter with the exemption which they have conveniently ignored.
Then go on to threaten them with the LGO and a formal complaint to the chiefe execuitive of the authority primarily with the discrimination bit and then the rest.
Ask if they have a code practice document in relation to disability discrimination, if they dont have one then use it against them at tribunal.
Why amused? Well, it would appear that Croydon Council don't even know what their own observation period is, as in the article it says 10 mns, and on my ticket, it says 5. It also says 5 here: Powered by Google Docs
(p.3)
Go figure.
Will let you guys know how I get on.
Apologies to people who I was in the process of helping, I may be gone some time.
Why amused? Well, it would appear that Croydon Council don't even know what their own observation period is, as in the article it says 10 mns, and on my ticket, it says 5. It also says 5 here: Powered by Google Docs
(p.3)
Go figure.
Will let you guys know how I get on.
Booky, with your appeal include the disability dicrimination act. Threaten them with the local government ombudsmen complaint And DEFFO go for costs aas they could have cancelled this at informal.
Also ask for the traffic order so you can examine it for exemptions and to see if it has been properly enabled.
I would put croyden cronies to all sorts of bother mate.
No loading observed? WTF? ***VICTORY***
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Originally Posted by Bookworm
