Thread: I got PCN in Leisure centre car park. No Penalty notice signs

Hi,

I just got a pcn under Code 85 ; parked in a permit bay without clearly displaying a valid permit.


I parked in the leisure centre "members only" car park while i attended a class there.
the leisure centre has 2 car parks, one a pay and display. which has sinage (attached) stating a £50 fine for not paying and displaying a valid ticket.

the other car park, just has a sign saying "members only car park" parked in this car park when attending a fitness class. when I returned to my car I had a PCN affixed for a penalty charge of £70. reduced to £35 paid within 14days of the served date (23.04.2009).

While I can apreciate parking in the "pay and display" car park without a valid ticked will land me a PCN. The Memebers only car park has no such notice stating there is a fine, or that a valid gym members permit must be displayed.

therefore I do feel that this PCN cannot be charged on me. unless the signs stated there is a fixed penalty for non member parking there.

(see attached photos.)

I have been trying to find out the laws on what sign must be displayed, but cant seem to get anywhere,. can anyone advise me?

many thanks
Jon

This is a private company yes? (I'm assuming so since the 'penalty' mentions VAT).

It's not a fine, a penalty or a pcn, it's unenforceable invoice. Private companies cannot issue fines, they can only recoup their losses (£1 or £2 on a P&D car park). There's no money in that, so they give out silly fake parking tickets demanding obscene amounts.

It's a [problem].

• do not pay
• do not contact them
• ignore the threatening letters they'll send you
• they will give up and go away

Terms such as 'code 85' and 'PCN' are tricks to make it sound like a council ticket. I bet the ticket was printed out with a little machine?

Hi thanks for your reply.
it is a Council ticket. im just scanning it now. issued by civil enforcement officer. Torbay Council.
ill attach scan in 5mins

Wow, ignore everything above then!

Never seen a council penalty refer to VAT. I would have though the penalty would actually be £43 then if £50 includes VAT, which doesn't apply to council fines. It would be useful to get clearer photos of the signage.

Hi this is the scan of my pcn i got from the leisure centre members parking
its Torbay council

Can't read it.

I'll take some closer picture of the sign this evening before my class., but do note that the Members car park does not have the pay and display signs in it. It only has the 2 "Lifestyle members parking only" signs on the entrance. My other pictures of the pay and display signage are in the pay and display car park.

two new scans of the pcn. hope these view better
regards
Jon

If you Google the site it states 'Managed by NCP on behalf of Torbay councel. Members permiis to be displayed'

these are a bit closer I had on my camera of the pay and display car park of the leisure centre. there really is no other sinage in the 'lifestyle members' car park. I walked about with my phone camera to look for anything else relating to the Lifestlye members only parking. there are only the two signs as per the picture on the enterence to that car park. clearly does not state anything about displaying a valid 'lifestyle members' permit in the vehicle. nor anything relating to penalty charges.

but I will take a closer picture of the other signs in the pay and display for your information. i do remember reading the sign over and nothing on the pay-and-display signage related at all to the 'lifestyle members' parking.

so i do not intend to pay the fine, just need to find the best approach to chalange it by letter- . I was thinking of enclosing 2 photos of the signs , stating that there are no signs to state you cannot park in the members car park with out a permit and no penalty charge is displayed in that car park.

perhaps another account would be (if the pcn did by some chance apply to the pay and display machine sign) that the charge displayed there is £50. and that my pcn is £70. so that in itself is incorrect. but i dont want to write to them and make a hash of it before i understand where the law is on this.

thanks
Jon

Originally Posted by Prawns25

If you Google the site it states 'Managed by NCP on behalf of Torbay councel. Members permiis to be displayed'

Ive not seen that on the website, but surly they have to actually display a sign in the car park to that effect. if the sign in the members car park stated that "a valid members permit must be displayed. Penalty £70"

then thats clear cut.

but it just says members only parking. no mention of displaying permit or fine

this is very iffy looking...... weird stuff.

http://www.rivieracentre.co.uk/pdfs/Winter_Lifestyle_Newslett er.pdf
A link to the Riviera site.

Originally Posted by patdavies

The numbers are all wrong for a Council pcn.

1) Councils cannot charge VAT on penalty charges
2) A Council PCN has a discounted period (14 days) of 50% - so £50 and £70 just don't cut it
3) I would contact the Council - without giving your name - and ask if they do, in fact, enforce on that car park


Can we have the photographs and PCN scanned as attachments and not thumbnails - they are just too small to read

Oh I thought they were attachments? maybe i did it wrong. i used the upload feature. I'll check it out again

hi, i have put all the picture in a PDF. hopefully you can view this correctly. i thinm my previous images got clipped as the file size was too large for the permitted amount. but have a look at this PDF

Your fine is for not displaying a valid permit, not 06
Parked without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket.

There seems to a crossover - there's a P&D section which infers it is run by a private company (due to the odd VAT signage), and a 'members onl'y section patrolled by the council.

Signage for 'members only' section is inadequate because it does not say that you need to display a permit.

So I would appeal with 'the contravention did not occur because no signage exists instructing that permits should be displayed'.

Also request that they enclose the Off Street Parking Places Order with their reply.

Originally Posted by Al27

Your fine is for not displaying a valid permit, not 06
Parked without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket.

There seems to a crossover - there's a P&D section which infers it is run by a private company (due to the odd VAT signage), and a 'members onl'y section patrolled by the council.

Signage for 'members only' section is inadequate because it does not say that you need to display a permit.

So I would appeal with 'the contravention did not occur because no signage exists instructing that permits should be displayed'.

Also request that they enclose the Off Street Parking Places Order with their reply.

thanks for your reply.
Yes totally agree ,I would of thought that the members signage must state that a valid members permit for the fine to be enforcable.

also my pcn is for code 85 ? it states on my PCN : "parked in a permit bay without clearly displaying a valid permit"


what do you mean in : " enclose the Off Street Parking Places Order" ?

thanks
Jon

Originally Posted by Acco123498

what do you mean in : " enclose the Off Street Parking Places Order" ?

thanks
Jon

For a council car park, there has to be a legal document held at the council specifically stating the parking rules and restrictions. If this document doesn't exist or is not clear and acurate regarding the offence you are alleged to have comitted, then the offence simply can't exist.

Sub