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I was selected for redundancy just before going on my maternity leave. My notice period is 3 months and I am not sure what I am entitled to and don't understand the consultation period very well. My meeting is on Tuesday and I am worried that I am going to miss my chance and not ask the wright questions. If anyone could help I would like to write you an email explaining all the details as it is a bit complicated. Thanks!
Could you tell us how long you worked there please?
Also when you say, 'I was selected for red just before mat leave...', do you mean you were put at risk of red at this point OR given formal notification that you would be made redundant at this point?
Che
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Please post on a thread before sending a PM. My opinion's are not expressed as agent or representative of The Consumer Action Group. Always seek professional advice from a qualified legal adviser before acting. If I have helped you please feel free to click on the black star.
I am sorry that work means I don't get into the Employment Forum as often as I would like these days, but nonetheless I'll try to pop in when I can.
It would be better if issues could be discussed openly in the forum, as it is usful for others in similar situations, suppose I gave you the wrong advice / information via a pm, there would not be an opportunity for this to be corrected.
I'm not suggesting that you should supply information that could identify you.
Regards
Andy
Advice is based on my personal opinion, and what I have learnt from this forum.
If you need legal advice please consider consulting a lawyer.
Thanks for your replies - here are some details in short:
I worked for the company for almost 5 years now. I am still at risk only but to be honest think I will be the one to go.
meeting 1 - Those selected at risk called into the meeting and told that the company is cutting costs and that the selection was not 'performance based' - (Performance was one of the SC later used in one of the letters I received)
meeting 2 (2 days later) - meeting with hr in which told that scoring system will be used. I think this was my consultation meeting although it wasn't clear at the time.
4 days later - received a letter which states that some selection has already taken place and that I scored 'low', repeating that my job is at risk.
Next meeting due on Tuesday.
How many 'consultation' meetings should I have?
None of the meetings were minuted.
I asked to bring my maternity leave forward, it is due to start in 2 weeks although I haven't heard back and have nothing in writting re my maternity leave and don't know if I am entitled to it at all, I am on 3 months notice.
At least you have had something in writing confirming your job is "at risk" - I haven't even had that much so far - and would therefore question whether being aware of the impending move since the outsight would give the employer a "get out" clause re. failure to serve proper notice on me come moving day.
As for your own situation I cannot see why they need to have more than 2 meetings with you - one to say you'e "at risk" and what the criteria for selection will/is likely to be - i.e. points based, and the other to confirm/deny whether you have been selected and why (selecting you for reasons that you are pregnant but pretending it is for something else such as performance doesn't seem particularly fair and thus unenforceable by your employet without financial penalty to be paid over to you on discrimination grounds). That's my view anyway, for what's it worth. I am no expert however.
Well firstly, in true Blue Peter Style, here is some general information on Red that I prepared earlier:
REDUNDNACY
redundancy is one of the six potential fair reasons to dismiss you. If you bring a claim for unfair dismissal and your employer can show that there was:
a) A genuine redundancy situation; and
b) A fair procedure was followed; and
c) No alternative employment was available; then you will lose your unfair dismissal claim.
A GENUINE REDUNDANCY SITUATION
The Employment Rights Act defines redundancy situations. Your employer cannot just ‘label’ your dismissal a redundancy without showing that a ‘real’ redundancy situation existed.
Remember that it is the role and not the person that is made redundant. Broadly speaking a genuine redundancy situation will exist if:
• The entire business closes
• The part of the business / place of work where your role was based is closing
• Your role disappears
• Fewer people are needed or will be needed in the particular role
The above will be the ‘first limb’ of your employer’s defence in arguing that you were made redundant. An Employment Tribunal will expect the employer to be able to produce some objective evidence to support their assertion that they were suffering one of the above situations.
B) A FAIR PROCEDURE
You may have a specified redundancy procedure outlined in your contract or if your employer recognises a union, via a Collective Agreement. If such agreements do exist, then your employer should ensure they are followed during any redundancy situation.
Assuming that no such agreements were in place, then integral to a fair procedure will be consultation between you and employer BEFORE a definite decision has been made to dismiss.
If more than 20 employees are to be made redundant, then statutory rules exist regarding consultation You should seek specialist advice if this applied to you.
Assuming that less than 20 employees were made redundant, then a ‘fair’ consultation should have included:
• Ways to avoid the compulsory redundancies altogether e.g. seeking volunteers, cutting costs, ceasing overtime etc
• Ways to reduce the numbers of people to be made redundant
• Mitigating the consequences
• If a method of selection is to be used (i.e. redundancy from ‘pools’) then you should have been consulted on the proposed scoring methods and given an opportunity to comment on your scores.
Consultation must be meaningful. This means a genuine two-way dialogue between employers and employees. Thus, if in a consultation meeting you suggest an overtime ban and the employer unreasonable refuses to consider that then it could make the redundancy process unfair.
C) ALTERNATIVE EMPLOYMENT
As part of the overall test of ‘reasonableness’ an employer should always try to avoid making employees compulsorily redundant. Thus the employer is obliged to look on behalf of every redundant employee and see if there is alternative employment in the same company or in associated companies e.g. those within the same group.
There is a special category of ‘Suitable Alternative Employment’ which if you unreasonably refuse could lead to you losing your right to a redundancy payment. Seek specialist advice if your employer is arguing that an offer of employment is ‘Suitable Alternative Employment’.
In your case, I would say that you could argue that consultation was not meaningful for the follwoing reasons:
1) If the meetings were not minuted how can the employer show that all nescessary issues were discussed.
2) Two days between meetings is gereally too soon - I advise a week is best, although am happy with Monday and Friday at a push
3) You may not have been fully consulted on the proposed SC, and how the scores were evaluated.
However, the caveat to all the above, is that you do have further meetings planned, and consultation my well be more in depth at the future meetings.
Che
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Please post on a thread before sending a PM. My opinion's are not expressed as agent or representative of The Consumer Action Group. Always seek professional advice from a qualified legal adviser before acting. If I have helped you please feel free to click on the black star.
I am sorry that work means I don't get into the Employment Forum as often as I would like these days, but nonetheless I'll try to pop in when I can.
I know that women on maternity leave should not go through the selection process as there is already a job available and should be offered this first. In my case is a bit unclear as the 'consulstation process has started before my maternity leave but there is a chance that it will end and that i will be made redundant while on maternity leave?
I know that women on maternity leave should not go through the selection process as there is already a job available and should be offered this first. In my case is a bit unclear as the 'consulstation process has started before my maternity leave but there is a chance that it will end and that i will be made redundant while on maternity leave?
A woman on mat leave can be made redundant, so therefore could be put through a selection process.
You are right though, that if alternative employment exists which is appropriate, then the employee on mat leave who was made red should be offered this role in preference to any other employees made red.
Che
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Please post on a thread before sending a PM. My opinion's are not expressed as agent or representative of The Consumer Action Group. Always seek professional advice from a qualified legal adviser before acting. If I have helped you please feel free to click on the black star.
I am sorry that work means I don't get into the Employment Forum as often as I would like these days, but nonetheless I'll try to pop in when I can.
Che,
there are 3 exactly the same roles in my team that are going to be reduced to 1 only and we are going through the selection process. I think that I would have to be offered this job if I was on maternity leave but what confuses me is that I am not on maternity leave yet now that this selection is taking place. The thing is, I may start my maternity leave during this selection process !? Do you think I should be offered the job or go through this process? I've been looking for an anser to this question for a while and nobody seems to know, I've been given a lot of different opinions.. Thanks!
It will all depend on the effective date upon which your contract is terminated on grounds of red.
If this date is when you are on mat leave then yes you shouuld be offered this, if not then you are merely an ordinary employee, albeit a pregnant one.
As you are meant to give (from memory) eight weeks notice of your start date of mat leave your employer will be under no obligation to bring this forward.
BUT - and i need to check the rules on this you may be able to bring the mat leave fwd by going off work sick with a pregnancy related illness, and this can automatically start your mat leave.
What is your EWC?
Che
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Please post on a thread before sending a PM. My opinion's are not expressed as agent or representative of The Consumer Action Group. Always seek professional advice from a qualified legal adviser before acting. If I have helped you please feel free to click on the black star.
I am sorry that work means I don't get into the Employment Forum as often as I would like these days, but nonetheless I'll try to pop in when I can.
What is normally the effective date the contract ends? Does this include notice period or the date they decide to end consultation process? Can the employer just end consultation without me attending my meeting (I am on sick leave at the moment) and send the final redundancy letter ?
due date 6 July.
I thought I needed to give 28 days notice to start my maternity leave, which is what I did but this was only after I was told my job was at risk. (not sure if it makes any difference I decided to bring this forward after this first general meeting).
Also, can anyone clarify if the number of jobs is going to be reduced from 3, those on maternity leave should not go trough the selection process but offered one of the jobs first. The law seems to be unclear on this. Is there an 'available' position in this case?
Sorry to hear of your troubles and best of luck. Also sorry to jump in on your thread. I've just registered today and seem to be having trouble starting a new thread. My partner si also having issues with redundancy and I would like to get some advice.
To start a new thread, go to the page you want to have a thread, at the top and bottom of the page there is a blue box which says...NEW THREAD. Click on that.
You will get an empty box up, Give your self a title, ie...Summer73-V- (xxxx thats it your off.
Please have a read of the link below. It has everything you will need to know to help you find your way around this site.
I've entered the conversation because Kai2 sent me a PM.
May I please know, Kai2, the exact chronological timeline.
Did you receive notification in writing from your employer that your position had been selected for possible redundancy BEFORE you told your employer (in writing, I hope) that you were pregnant?
Or, had you given your employer your MATB1 BEFORE you received a 'possible redundancy' letter?
Or, had you told a member of the management in your firm (or if someone else, who?) that you were pregnant and then received your 'possible redundancy' letter? If this was the case, what was the time elapsed between your telling someone at work and you receiving your 'possible redundancy' letter?
thank you v much for your reply.
I have notified my employer about my pregnancy long time ago and gave them my MAT1 long before I had a meeting in which I was told my job was at risk.
meeting 1 - Those selected at risk called into the meeting and told that the company is cutting costsetc, etc and that our jobs are at risk.
meeting 2 (2 days later) - very short and informal meeting with hr in which told that scoring system will be used and the same repeatd from the first meeting. I think this was my consultation meeting although it wasn't clear at the time. the meeting was not minuted.
4 days later - received a letter which states that some selection has already taken place and that I scored 'low', repeating that my job is at risk and giving the time for the next meeting.
I have notified my employer about my pregnancy long time ago and gave them my MAT1 long before I had a meeting in which I was told my job was at risk.
Hi Kai2,
Firstly, please keep your mesages to me on the forum, so that everybody can benefit by learning from the content. Except if you need to ask me something that will mean you will definitely identify yourslf. It is impossible to tell who you are, and even if your employer has an idea, what can they do about it? They have no proof and they can't stop you talking. They're already making you redundant. What else can they do to you?
Now, in my opinion, you can forget everything else. If your employer had your MATB1 as you describe above, you are not eligible for selection for redundancy. Your job can be selected for redundancy but your employer must keep you, the pregnant lady, employed, on the same terms and conditions as you currently are.
No ifs, no buts. If your employer proceeds with putting you, the person, through redundancy, you have a claim for unfair dismissal and sex discrimination. That's the news that will have you jumping up and down with joy.
Now, let's get back to the real world. I'm going to ask you how many employees is your employer making redundant out of how many total employees in your firm? Really important question. As soon as you've given me that, I will finish my reply.
Regards
Liz
I assume this is only in the case where there is a selection process (which there is in my case), or when there are similar jobs available.
I had so many different opinions on this, including ACAS helpline, employment lawyers, union rep and few other HR people. Most say that pregnant women have this special right but say that they still can lose in the pool and if there are no OTHER roles that are suitable, the one that they are competing for is not in fact 'available'. Few others (like you) agree that while on maternity leave you should not be going through the selection process with other people in your team but offered the job as a priority. I even had 2 employment lawyers stating that if you are going through the selection process, doesn't mean that there is a job available (unless the role changes or they ask people to reapply etc) so they insist that since there are no available position, women on maternity leave need to go through the same process as everyone else and therefore not kept in their roles automatically but potentially made redundant if their scores are not high enough.
I am aware of Regulation 10 of Maternity and Parental etc Regulations 1999 which states that the woman on maternity leave (please note that this does not include pregnant women) can jump the queue to get any available vacancy that is suitable. The questions:
1. is there an available vacancy in this case? as I said, some argue that there isn't
2. am i going to be on maternity leave at the time my redundancy becomes effective??
Liz, I realise that in your opinion even pregnant ladies have this special right and I really hope you are right!
Thanks very much for your time!
HELP please - redundancy consultation period
just before going on my maternity leave. My notice period is 3 months and I am not sure what I am entitled to and don't understand the consultation period very well. My meeting is on Tuesday and I am worried that I am going to miss my chance and not ask the wright questions. If anyone could help I would like to write you an email explaining all the details as it is a bit complicated. Thanks!
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Originally Posted by kai2
