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Hi there, like many, this is my first post and I'm hoping for some help...
I think I'm being victimised at work as a result of a previous formal complaint that I made about a former senior manager.
The background is, the former manager had tried to bully me into falsifying Health & Safety Documentation (vehicle road worthiness forms), and had repeatedly singled me out as guilty of booking excessive overtime - I'm a driver so overtime is often dictated by traffic conditions - In my complaint I was able to prove that the routes we are given could not be completed within a standard shift and drew attention to the legality of pressuring an employee to make false statements about the road worthiness of the vehicles. I also suggested that the above and a few other incidents appeared to point to a case of constructive dismissal.
Anyway, upshot was that complaint was upheld (although my allegation of constructive dismissal did not receive a response) and within a month or so the senior manager was no longer at the company. I was not told that this was a response to my complaint, but suspect it was at least a contributing factor.
Now; back in late 2008 I got wind of an NVQ that fits my current role perfectly so I looked into it and found I could do this course free of charge if my employer agreed to the workplace assessment side of it all.
Firstly, in line with company procedure I asked my line-manager about the course and he later relayed the company response; "No" to the training on grounds of cost. I explained that there were no costs associated with the course for either myself or the company. He responded that the word was no, and that was the reason given.
After this, I collared one of the company directors and asked, informally, about the NVQ course - he told me that someone had been put in charge of company training and once they were up to speed I would hear from them.
Some time passed, no word from the Director or the person that had been appointed. I emailed the Director (he had given me his business card on a previous unrelated occasion) and I got a very short and curt response from his PA telling my that I was out of order for contacting a Director directly, that I shouldn't do it again, that I should direct all queries through my line-manager and that the person responsible for training would be given my details and I would hear from them soon.
Several weeks passed, no word from anyone on the subject so I collared another senior manager; I was, I admit a little frustrated and this was apparent in my demeanour although I strongly maintain that I was not rude or aggressive to the manager in any way. Anyway, as soon as I mentioned the NVQ course he interrupted me, I continued with my explanation of the problem and he started shouting that I had a bad attitude, he repeated this several times while I tried to assert that I had a reason to bring it all up and in the end I walked away.
Right, this is where I'm not sure if there's some victimisation. I have discovered that several other people in the company have been placed on similar NVQ courses (same NVQ level but different job roles and therefore course subjects).
Does the fact that I have been refused permission to undergo this NVQ while others in the company are permitted to participate in similar training constitute unfair treatment, and does the background I've given above suggest that I am being victimised?
The last senior manager I spoke to lodged a verbal, but formal, complaint about my behaviour; I responded to this as I have here and as a result there is to be a meeting between the Director previously mentioned, my line-manager and myself (not sure if the other senior manager will be present) to discuss the reasoning behind the decision not to allow me to undergo training and "any other issues" that I may have. What should I be prepared for in such a meeting? As far as "any other issues" goes, should I bring up that I never received a pay increase that was verbally agreed in Sept 2007 until Aug 2008?
Thank you for taking the time to read this, I hope it makes sense and that someone can offer some advice (actually I'll even take a little sympathy at the moment, it's really getting me down).
Sounds to me that you need to start looking for another job. When work relationships go sour in this way quite frankly is probably very difficult to bring them back.
You need to start taking defensive action. I would start to keep a complete diary of everything that happens -- all conversations, correspondence -- and any events which occur at work. Keep this diary fully up-to-date and keep it at home. Make sure that you also have a full account of everything that has happened in the past couple of years and also any paperwork relating to your employment.
If there is union? Do you belong to it? Join a union if you can.
Constructive dismissal means that the situation at work has become so serious that no reasonable person could be expected to tolerate it. You must then react to the intolerable situation by resigning your job. You must then make a claim for unfair dismissal on the basis that you were dismissed constructively. You have to bring your case before an industrial tribunal very quickly. I can't remember the deadlines at the moment -- it may be three months -- but whatever the deadline is they are very strictly enforced.
You seem to be conducting situation very well and very methodically at work but I'm afraid that this is most likely to wind people up because senior management will not like to feel that one of their drivers is taking control of the situation.
Only you know how much you want to work there -- and only you know how easy it will be to get another job. However it sounds to me as if your situation is deteriorating and you could find yourself in a position where they could come up with some justification for dismissing you and it might be much harder for you to get some kind of redress.
Whatever happens make sure that you are always gathering and recording information. It will be your only safeguard.
Please don't pm me about specific questions unless you have posted and it has not been dealt with or unless the matter is confidential. Please include a link to the post you want me to look at. If you have received a defence, contact me.
Advice & opinions of BankFodder, The Consumer Action Group and The Bank Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any doubts.
Ok, first off the bad news, your employer is only duty bound to allow you to undertake training that is considered essential for your job and I'm guessing that the NVQ doesn't fall into that category. Nonetheless, you have said that the qualification is relevant to your post and would enhance your skills and thus benefit the company.
I note you mention that the course is free, but you don't say if you would need to be absent from work to attend. This is naturally a factor that your employer would need to take into consideration.
Your strongest argument is the fact that others within the company have been allowed to undertake similar training and yet your request appears to have been dismissed out of hand. On this point, there does appear to be some element of discrimination taking place.
Without wishing to upset you, you do appear to have been branded as a trouble maker by your company and I would tend to avoid any further face to face discussions about this topic at the moment.
I don't know if you are in a trade union, but if not, I would be inclined to write to the Director asking for a copy of any policies the company has regarding training. I would highlight the benefits of undertaking the training for both yourself and the company. I would also state that you are aware that other employees have been permitted to undertake similar training and therefore are confused and disappointed as to why you are not being afforded equitable opportunities. Ask for a written response.
The Director will probably pass the communication down for a reply, but if you head it as PERSONAL then his PA should not open it and you will at least know that he is aware of your concerns.
Other than this, your only other route is to submit a grievance, but I would be inclined to adopt an informal approach in the first instance.
Good luck!!
If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing!
Thanks for the responses BankFodder and WelshMam2009, keeping a diary is excellent advice, thank you, I will step up my record keeping (though I do keep loose records, a daily record will clearly be more valuable).
To answer one query, the course is both free of charge to both employer and employee (paid for by DWP or similar I expect) and conducted on-site in work time, although there would be very little, to no disruption at all to my normal working shift aside from about one hours on site assessment per month for I think about 6 months, I certainly would not need to be absent from any regular shift to complete the course...
I'll stick with the softly softly approach, reinstate my Unite union membership and keep a diary for the time being.
I'll stick with the softly softly approach, reinstate my Unite union membership and keep a diary for the time being.
That's probably the best approach. Discretely gather any evidence that you can in the meantime also. Make sure the diary you write in is your own personal one and not a work one as then can take this off you. Also, make sure that you keep any copies of any paperwork or emails you may need at home.
Keep your head down and keep a low profile...
If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing!
I'm writing this from an employer's point of view. I have chaired many disciplinary meetings with "erring, troublesome employees". But I have not forgotten the time when I was an employee.
Make no mistake, if you have been "invited" to attend a meeting, this is not an "informal chat". The employer is using this as part of the company's disciplinary procedure, so they MUST obey the rules under the Employment Rights Act. This is the first meeting before you get given your first verbal warning, unless it is very clearly stated in writing that this is a grievance meeting which you have raised. You must receive a letter from the company informing you of the time and date you have to attend, the reason for the meeting, you must be given "reasonable" notice (at least one week) and (very important) they must state in the letter that you are entitled to have one person sit in the meeting with you. That person can only be either a current work colleague or a UK officially recognised trade union official. The union official is usually better, but only you will know whether or not your trade union official is in the pocket of the management. (It happens.) Even if the union rep is weak, it is still to your advantage to take him in over a work colleague. If you cannot find a work colleague to go in with you, (for fear of reprisal from the management) you are entitled to ask for a different time and date in order to find someone to go in with you. They cannot refuse and they cannot force you to have the meeting without that person, if you require one. (Instant discrimination and harassment.)
There are rules about the meeting. They should provide drinking water, (take your own), an adequate chair, a desk for you to put your papers on, and breaks every ten minutes (if you require it or if you get upset). If your chair is lower than management's chair, or if it is facing the sun (it happens, though not by me!) ask for a different chair or change its position. Your colleague may speak to you and may ask questions but they may not answer on your behalf.
CPD - Continuing Professional Development, must be available to all employees in a company, not just some. If the company says they are strapped for cash in this recession, then nobody gets training! When did these others start their training? The company may have changed its policy and you need to check this. Lack of communication from management seems to be escalating this situation. A good manager would have spoken to you one-to-one in private and come to some agreement with you. If training is not available to everyone, the company must be able to come up with a rock solid reason as to why they have blocked you, or an Employment Tribunal will decide in your favour. By the way, the very mention of those two words "Employment Tribunal" will terrify your employer, so keep that in reserve, when you need to put them off their stroke.
At the meeting, the management may very well try to get you annoyed, so they can say they have had to terminate the meeting. DO NOT RESPOND. I say again. DO NOT RESPOND. If when you are at work at any time, your line manager comes up and tries to goad you, usually when there's no-one else around, put your hands down by your sides and take one step back. (Literally.) This shows that he is being aggressive (he will naturally step forward, unless he is very clued up) and it is intimidation. NEVER raise your voice or make any threats. Never be cocky or say something like, "Your game won't work". Don't forewarn them that you know what they're doing. And yes, good advice, keep a record. Dates, times, those present. What you remember was said, who it was said by, what you felt, and what was done (actions, hand gestures), other people present. Sign each note, with the time and date you made the note. On separate pieces of paper, as you may not wish to share all of your notes.
Your senior managers will be distancing themselves from your line manager's behaviour. If you experience this and bring a grievance they can say it didn't come from them.
Your senior managers will be being very nice to you until the meeting. Play their game. Be nice to them. Make sure you go through your contract with a fine toothcomb. Is there a company handbook which constitutes part of your contract? It is your responsibility to ensure that you know this front to back. A copy should be available to you without your having to ask management for it (harassment.) Same with company policies and procedures. These should be in your staff room (if you have one) or in an area common to all staff. Don't make a big thing of this now, but make sure you request a copy of policies and procedures, and company handbook IN WRITING, (check for reference to these in your contract). If you do make a request verbally, they can deny it. Don't go over the top and send your manager recorded delivery letters. There's no coming back from that if you want to continue working there.
At the meeting you are not allowed to bring up any grievance that is not to do with CPD. If you do that, or ask for a separate grievance meeting about anything now, you may as well resign right now, because they will get you in the end. (Like I said, speaking as an employer.)
Remember that the employer is cursing you right now, because he has to organise this meeting and take time out of his day to have it, with another manager, and possibly cover shifts for anyone he is taking out of work to attend the meeting. He will probably also have consulted his solicitor, which he has to pay for, and he'll be miffed about that.
Take details in with you of the other employees and the courses they have been allowed to go on, and the effect their courses have on the company. (ie, none.) DO NOT MENTION THESE EMPLOYEES BY NAME. The director, if he's any good, will immediately quote the Data Protection Act and refuse to discuss other employees, so refer to them as employee A who works in (Section, department), employee B, etc. How long have you worked for the company? How long have the other employees going on the courses worked for the company? Are you on the same pay scale level, job, etc. Gather as much information on paper as you can to make your case. Who has had training in the past? The company may have a limit to the number of people they can release for operational reasons.
At some stage in the meeting, you need to prove that you are acting reasonably (always thinking of what it will sound before an Employment Tribunal). They will slip in a question, "What are you hoping will be the outcome of this meeting?" Do not say, "I'll take you to an employment tribunal and get compensation for hurt feelings". (Which I believe is now £5,000, but don't quote me.) Say something like, "I am hoping we can come to a reasonable solution such as my being allowed to undertake my training. I certainly think this situation has escalated out of all proportion, for example, I had a conversation with the director and it got a little heated between us. Two men. That's life. We should have forgotten it and walked away. This is wasting my time. (Shrug of the shoulders, here.) It's wasting your time. I don't want to take this to an Employment Tribunal if I don't have to (BANG. Stop speaking here for a little while.)[You will need to practise this.] If you can, wait until you see the director start to speak and interrupt him with, "I just want to get on with my work and do my training. If you can agree that, we can put this behind us." (Stop speaking.) If there is another manager there, don't look at him while you are saying this. Look directly at the one you are speaking to, so the second one can't interrupt you.
Before you go in the meeting have a very good idea of what you will say. Get someone to practise asking you nasty questions you don't expect. If it happens in the meeting, sit back and appear to think. Don't speak immediately. Use the phrase, "I think we're getting off track here." and return to the subject. Or, "I don't think that's helpful." (and carry on saying whatever you want to say.)
A suggestion here. Don't bother with ACAS. They're rubbish. You get a different answer each time you ring them, and they don't live in the real world. And the mere mention of their name will make your employer boil, which you don't want, if you do want your job.
By the way, have you put in a calm, nicely worded written grievance about your training and confirming that you are having a meeting. You need to, before the meeting, so that management can't write to you later and say the meeting was held as a disciplinary against you, rather than a grivance meeting for you. I would be very interested to know what communication has passed between you and management in writing?
Sorry this is long-winded. I hope it all makes sense. I don't mean to worry you more than you are. Remember the best defence is to be well prepared.
Liz
Liz; you're a star - I'm very grateful for the perspective and guidance; I will be significantly better prepared for the meeting on Wednesday morning as a result.
Something occurred to me. I believe you said you are a driver. So I imagine you realise that your employer has the legal right to randomly breathalyse 1 in 10 employees.
In view of your being at odds with your management, may I suggest that you make sure you don't have a drink until this is over, and then keep a check on the hours needed to clear the alcohol from your system before you start your shift.
Also, be careful about mouth wash which has alcohol in it.
Forgive me if I'm telling you something you already know.
Something occurred to me. I believe you said you are a driver. So I imagine you realise that your employer has the legal right to randomly breathalyse 1 in 10 employees.
....
Forgive me if I'm telling you something you already know.
! nope, that's news to me, I don't think anyone in the company has ever been breathalysed, and they've never informed us that they may exercise their right to perform the check... Luckily I'm already pretty meticulous when it comes to alcohol and driving - but fore-warned is fore-armed.
right at the start of the meeting I asked for clarification as to whether the meeting was being considered a disciplinary hearing or a grievance meeting - this got the director instantly annoyed, he stated that it was a preliminary meeting in which to discuss the core issue (NVQ training) prior to me filing a grievance.
He went on to explain that as a driver I was a lower priority than some of the others that were undergoing training, a costly structure was being put in place in order to carry out their training and the reason I had not been given a decent answer was that he was busy with the logistics of that.
I explained my position which, given that I'd done my own research and confirmed that my specific training was available at no cost or inconvenience to the company, and that up to this point no-one had put forward a reason that made sense I had drawn the conclusion that I was being victimised (as a result of background previously mentioned).
Interesting change in the directors demeanour at that point and it became much more of a discussion. He justified the imbalance again by saying that the training offered to the others was costing the company a lot of money and implied that the assumption was that my training would also cost them - if my assertion that it would not proves, on further investigation, to be correct, I and all of the other drivers will be offered the training I have requested...
...So on balance I think it's a successful outcome we'll wait and see of course and I'll have to be on my very best behaviour so as not to give them a reason to boot me out in the meantime :-|
A very genuine thanks to you folks for giving me excellent support, advice and guidance, your scales will be tipped - it definitely helped me feel more confident in standing my ground and helped me avoid some pitfalls that would have escalated the situation out of control
I'll continue to maintain a diary of events and hope that calm returns...
[quote=chimpski;2134667] "whether the meeting was being considered a disciplinary hearing or a grievance meeting - this got the director instantly annoyed, he stated that it was a preliminary meeting in which to discuss the core issue (NVQ training) prior to me filing a grievance."
I believe this proves he doesn't want problems with employees right now - in 'director speak', means he's worried about more important things - like finding the money for a costly training programme he agreed to BEFORE the recession kicked in.
"I had not been given a decent answer ... he was busy with the logistics of that."
Or busy trying to pay for it and bills & salaries perhaps?
"training was available at no cost or inconvenience to the company,"
Well done. You cracked it here. At that point the director realised you didn't want money from him and his stress disappeared, which might mean that loads of other people do want money from him.
"I and all of the other drivers will be offered the training I have requested... "
Go Chimpski Go Chimpski!!! Seriously? Looks like your director has money worries.
"I'll have to be on my very best behaviour so as not to give them a reason to boot me out in the meantime :-|"
Anything to get your NVQ before your company goes under. (IF, okay?)
And not to end on a negative note, Yeeeeeah, You Won!!! Go Chimpski!!!
CPD - Continuing Professional Development, must be available to all employees in a company, not just some. If the company says they are strapped for cash in this recession, then nobody gets training! When did these others start their training? The company may have changed its policy and you need to check this. Lack of communication from management seems to be escalating this situation. A good manager would have spoken to you one-to-one in private and come to some agreement with you. If training is not available to everyone, the company must be able to come up with a rock solid reason as to why they have blocked you, or an Employment Tribunal will decide in your favour. By the way, the very mention of those two words "Employment Tribunal" will terrify your employer, so keep that in reserve, when you need to put them off their stroke.
Can you point me to the legislation that states this? I am not aware that any employer is required by law to provide CPD.
As far as I know, training may be offered on a needs basis and does not have to be offered to all employees.
Can you point me to the legislation that states this? I am not aware that any employer is required by law to provide CPD.
As far as I know, training may be offered on a needs basis and does not have to be offered to all employees.
Hi Pat
We're in a cross-over period as far as compulsory is concerned. Currently if an employer offers CPD to one employee it must be offered to all employees but the employer has the choice to say no CPD at all. The employer can offer it on a needs basis, but is risking, in not offering it to all employees, a claim for exclusion - indirect discrimination under equal opportunities legislation; ie, someone is refused training, can't progress at work, or would be paid a higher salary with his NVQ or whatever qualification, so resigns and claims constructive unfair dismissal. If an employee is clever, he can claim under that law, or Employment Rights Act 1996, (can't remember the section) and will soon be able to claim under the current workforce reforms which are at white paper stage, and which are being put into operation already by the larger companies and public sector employers UK wide, as CPD becomes compulsory. I believe the transport industry and National Health have put theirs into operation, so has the Education Department, eg, I believe teachers now have to do 30 hours CPD every year (or lose their job) - part-timers minimum of 6 hours. Basically, CPD is now compulsory and linked with quality/standards verification, probably with a few industries exempt. It's interesting because as I understand it, the word compulsory now applies to the action of both the employer and the employee.
What industry are you in?
I know that my business is already working to the new rules, and I am busy sending employees (pushing and shoving some of the older ones) to all sorts of courses required by Ofsted. On top of this, as part of the quality/standards verification, all existing qualificiations are now being examined to see if they come up to standard. Those with sub-standard quals will be expected to retrain. So you will have someone with 20 years' experience being expected to go back to the classroom! 'Sub-standard' is partly specified by out-of-date! Qualifications will be awarded points and if an employee doesn't have enough points, go retrain or lose your job!!
Sorry, this has got ever so long again!!!
Must go, I'm in the middle of two disciplinaries.
Regards
Liz
PS How do you get a quote to go dark background?
good news, the NVQ course I requested is now officially being offered to all drivers in my company - hurrah...
It does look like they're playing tit-for-tat though as I'm being reprimanded for not picking up on a vehicle defect quickly enough (it won't stand up, I missed it one day but caught it the next - the driver from the previous week didn't spot the problem at all and he's not being disciplined so I'll appeal and get it thrown out in the end - all adds to a future Victimisation case should there be a need for one)
PS How do you get a quote to go dark background?
on the subject of quotes, the code [/quote] - must follow the text you are quoting - this must be preceeded by the code [quote=blah,xxxxx]. It's done automatically if you copy&paste the txt you want to quote into the reply edit box select it and then click the speech bubble in the little row of menu options above.
good news, the NVQ course I requested is now officially being offered to all drivers in my company - hurrah...
Hi Chimpski
Good news re the NVQ. If you remember my last message to you - makes you wonder if your firm are reading this site!
I find a common occurrence with employers is that they stay annoyed with one employee until another employee does something to get their attention. (Not that I'm being disloyal to "my kind") But let's hope someone annoys your employer soon. And in the meantime, you are keeping detailed notes of everything, yes? With times and dates, and not letting anybody see you do it, and don't tell anyone. And may I suggest you don't let your notetaking slip.
Bearing driver's hours into consideration, how about doing a favour for your boss? If someone goes sick? You cover it - short notice, maybe -and settle for reasonable pay for doing it? If you have a chance to do this, your employer may be cynical about it but if you do it a couple of times, you might find his attitude changes.
yes, I'm keeping notes for sure (I've even started photocopying my time-sheets and all other notes and memos that go around), just in case
Interesting thought about whether my employer is reading this site; long shot perhaps, but it's entirely possible...
Anyway, I suspect most of the agro is coming from middle management rather than from director level, as it's one of those that I've made look particularly stupid now the company has done a 180 from its original position...
Victimisation at work - denial of training...
.
Reply With Quote
Re: Victimisation at work - denial of training...
Originally Posted by chimpski
Re: Victimisation at work - denial of training...
) to all sorts of courses required by Ofsted. On top of this, as part of the quality/standards verification, all existing qualificiations are now being examined to see if they come up to standard. Those with sub-standard quals will be expected to retrain. So you will have someone with 20 years' experience being expected to go back to the classroom!
'Sub-standard' is partly specified by out-of-date! Qualifications will be awarded points and if an employee doesn't have enough points, go retrain or lose your job!!