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I am deeply concerned about this and would appreciate good sound advice please.
I have had a Morgan Stanley Credit Card since March 2000 - Now owned by Barclaycard.
I CCA (all templates from CAG) them in Feb 2009 and received no response. I have not paid them since and I have not received any telephone calls or any DCA.
Today I have received in there opinion my CCA.
I have looked and
Its looks like an application form.
Its illegible.
The time living at my address is wrong and seems to be in a different hand writing and also different pen.
It seems like a lot has been cut and pasted (see 4 on the CCA)
This is ALMOST EXACTLY the same as the 'agreement' they sent me, except the cut and pasting is different, and you have Questions 9 and 10, which I don't. How odd is that? One application form asks about PPI and Protecting your Cards, but the other doesn't.
Incidentally this is absolutely spooky because we both applied for the cards on exactly the same date.
My Q4 is missing under Q3 and Q5 starts halfway down opposite Q1 - there is no Q4 at all.
There are various other discrepancies too - references to Conditions which aren't on the second page which is apparently the T&Cs. Also, having seen your form with the question about the PPI, I have looked at mine again, and there is a reference in 'About the Agreement' - "If I have applied for Payment Protection Plan ......" but that question isn't on my form.
I have always had a theory in the six months I have been here that if we compare enough 'agreements' we will be able to spot the cut and paste jobs, and I think we have here.
I wrote to Barclaycard about the discrepancies in January but have had no response other than threats from Mercers/Calders/Scotcall.
I don't know if we can accuse them of fraud. I cannot believe they were issuing almost identical forms in the same month but what we are being sent is different. You ticked PPI, but I know I didn't and that box is missing from my form!
If no-one from the site teams comes back on this in the next couple of hours or so I'll bump it, or ask someone to comment for us. Clearly one of us has a dodgy form.
Any help and advice is offered in good faith, based solely on my own knowledge and on experience gathered from this site. I am not qualified to offer legal or financial advice, which you should seek from an expert before making any important decisions. My opinions are therefore offered without liability.
This document that I have put on the site is exactly how I received it.
It is illegible and just looks wrong.
I think that I did tick my PPI application so that would be right, but this was 9 years a go.
Your quote “Have you checked the doc't for enforceability. Specifically check to see if it contains the Prescribed Terms”. I cannot - as it is illegible its just like the one I have out on the site.
I am deeply concerned about this.
What can I write or do about this as this is I am sure a fake.
Any help and advice is offered in good faith, based solely on my own knowledge and on experience gathered from this site. I am not qualified to offer legal or financial advice, which you should seek from an expert before making any important decisions. My opinions are therefore offered without liability.
Any help and advice is offered in good faith, based solely on my own knowledge and on experience gathered from this site. I am not qualified to offer legal or financial advice, which you should seek from an expert before making any important decisions. My opinions are therefore offered without liability.
You have failed to acknowledge this request by not supplying a true copy of my Consumer Credit Act 1974 agreement.
Further I have deep concerns about this application form that you have sent me for the following reasons
The document is not legible as required by the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.
The documents appear to have been fabricated/ recreated, and does not appear to be an unadulterated copy of the original document.
You are reminded that you are obliged to supply a True copy of these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, as defined under Section 189 of the CCA 1974.
Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document, if not please confirm that you do not hold a true copy.
I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which I have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides.
Please confirm by no later than 4pm on 10th May 2009 that you will comply with my request or, if you will not comply, please provide your reasons in writing.
I actually asked them about specific points. I can pm you my letter if you like. However, Slick and others might think it's best to be vague.
I need to write them another letter now asking about 9 and 10!!
Also I personally never write back by return - this was something I was told by a lawyer some years ago. Some things - Court stuff, etc., must be responded to quickly - but anything else can be left for a week or so, or longer. Makes you look less bothered he told me. If you jump to attention too quickly they think they have got you rattled. I have learned on CAG that despite all the bank's/dcas threats that they will send doorsteppers/issue court proceedings and so on, it takes them much longer to take that step than they imply.
Up to you of course - we all choose how we handle it.
I would be grateful and interested to see your letter, can I ask is mine ok.
The problem is that I am always unsure of what to put, I know what I want to say like ‘Bog off’etc, but I read the letters you guys put on this site and I think that’s the dog’s bits.
Thanks for making the effort. Your letter was good and gave me the basis for this version:-
Dear sir or madam,
Account No: xxxx xxxx
I refer to your letter dated 21st April sent in response to my request made under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.
I believe you have not responded adequately to my request because:-
1. The "Credit Agreement" document is not legible as required by the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.
2. The documents appear to have been fabricated/ recreated, and does not appear to be an unadulterated copy of the original document.
You are reminded that you are obliged to supply a True copy of these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, as defined under Section 189 of the CCA 1974.
Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document, if not please confirm that you do not hold a true copy.
I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that, by supplying the document which I have asked for, it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides.
Please confirm by no later than 4pm on 10th May 2009 that you will comply with my request or, if you will not comply, please provide your reasons in writing.
Any help and advice is offered in good faith, based solely on my own knowledge and on experience gathered from this site. I am not qualified to offer legal or financial advice, which you should seek from an expert before making any important decisions. My opinions are therefore offered without liability.
I do have one concern, this CCA/ Application has clearly been tampered with and distorted. Should I report this or even could I not make claim for deceit? As I am sure that they would?
This is what I sent in January - no reply at all. Calders chased and I told them I was waiting for a reply and they said I must phone and chase and because I was in a good mood I said I would. They gave me a number to call and needless to say it was an answerphone and I left a message and my call was not returned.
I keep getting letters from Calder and they sent a Scotcaller last week. He left very quietly when I gave him the 'Licence to revoke your permission to be here' letter. In fact he apologized and said he was only doing his job.
I acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 12th January 2009 enclosing what you confirm to be a copy of my original Morgan Stanley Credit Agreement. This is in fact my original Application Form for a Morgan Stanley Dean Witter Platinum Card, together with some “Financial and Related Particulars” which appear not to have any connection with the Application form.
As you must be aware, this is not a properly executed Credit Card Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.
It is scarcely legible, as any copy must be, but I can decipher most of it.
On the Application form in the ‘Data Protection’ box there is a reference to Condition 16 of the terms and conditions. There is no Condition 16 anywhere in the paperwork you have sent me.
In the “Financial and Related Particulars”, there are ten single points, but there are references to Condition 6.8 and Condition 10.4 which are not contained within these Particulars.
I should be grateful if you would explain these discrepancies.
Until such time as you provide a properly executed Credit Card Agreement this account remains in dispute.
To my shame - because of the way it was photocopied - I didn't notice I was missing Q4, but there is no way I could have known that I was missing 9 and 10.
The 'Please Sign and Return' paragraph is numbered 11 on yours and 9 on mine.
I think I want to report them but fos is very slow. I don't know what the OFT would do either.
If we have incontrovertible evidence that they are creating agreements, rather than providing a true copy, that is very serious. I absolutely don't believe that they had two different forms of agreement in January 2000 some with Qs 9 and 10 and some without. Why would they want to miss any opportunity of flogging PPI?
Their letter clearly states that they are enclosing a copy of my original agreement - not that it is "Edited Highlights" for want of a better expression.
Desperate Daniella, I totally agree but I would like some one to give us both some sound advice on this, in my mind its fraud and I am sure in the eyes of the law this would be as well.
In my letter from Barclaycard they state that this “a copy of your original credit agreement at the time you opened your account”.
I feel that we should send a letter saying if you wish to pursue my alleged debt I will pursue you for fraud.
Totally agree with you Chris. I think it is fraud too. I started a thread about this a few months ago, and got a response from someone saying they couldn't believe a bank would do anything like this.
Any help and advice is offered in good faith, based solely on my own knowledge and on experience gathered from this site. I am not qualified to offer legal or financial advice, which you should seek from an expert before making any important decisions. My opinions are therefore offered without liability.
I was angry, so I rang them up and said that this is in serious dispute why are you sending letters, she asked why it was in dispute. I told her that I have not received a properly executed credit agreement. She said have you asked for one!!!!!!! (just for the past 5 months)
She also said that the FSO has informed them that they can still pursue the debt even though it’s in dispute. ??????
I was angry, so I rang them up and said that this is in serious dispute why are you sending letters, she asked why it was in dispute. I told her that I have not received a properly executed credit agreement. She said have you asked for one!!!!!!! (just for the past 5 months)
She also said that the FSO has informed them that they can still pursue the debt even though it’s in dispute. ??????
I was that angry I said take me to court.
Any advice please
Hmm was there a second page only the required prescribed terms for a default notice arent on that letter
IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.
Chris v Morgan Stanley (urgent help Please)
) them in Feb 2009 and received no response. I have not paid them since and I have not received any telephone calls
or any DCA
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Makes you look less bothered he told me. If you jump to attention too quickly they think they have got you rattled. I have learned on 
Originally Posted by chris5664
