Thread: Double Parking by CCTV SmartCar, Didnt recieve 1st letter also

I was issued a pcn via HARINGEY COUNCIL for double parking on a residential side road.
I was waiting for my friend outside his house. There were no spaces and I stopped next to a parked car. The parking spaces had no lines/bays at the time, a month later it is now all resident only bays.

I was there for about 5mins, I remember I got out to check my tyre at minute 2 and then got back in because i was bored.

I did not receive the 1st letter they apparently sent out, the PCN. I appealed on the second letter I received about not receieving a letter and wanting evidence.

They replied that the letter was not sent back to the return address and attached three pictures of my car parked at different times.
however No pictures of me getting out the car or my friend entering.
They are requesting £100 within 14days, £150 plus court fess otherwise

There was a CCTV Smart car way out in front of me that i didnt notice, only realised this when i received the evidence as The pictures were taken of the front of my car and I drove past the same spot one day and saw a CCTV car there.

There were no warning/camera signs as I entered the side road.

Only (i think) warning/camera signs on the cctv car itself, but I didnt see it as it was in front of me quite far away.

Any advice please?

Thanks

Can you clarify what letters you got, saying first and second letters doesn't really help each letter has a purpose, pcn, charge certificate etc.

TMA does not include the exemption previously allowed for enforcement without signage. ALL the councils and the DfT know this.

London Authorities can still enforce under the powers given by the RTRA 1984 without any need for signage.

How ?

also doesn't it depend on what the pcn says.

any seen a RTRA 1984 PCN from a London Authority or double parking ?

Originally Posted by lamma

How ?

also doesn't it depend on what the pcn says.

any seen a RTRA 1984 PCN from a London Authority or double parking ?

Who mentioned a RTRA act PCN??

you did
OP tells us they have received a pcn (post 1) .
You say "can still enforce under the powers given by the RTRA 1984"

You still haven't said how.

But why let the thread be sidetracked.

If the PCN is issued under TMA there is a good legal argument against it.
If it was issued under LLA 2003 its a different question.

Post #3 was made
1) to inform the general reader (as the councils have NOT informed the public and many have kept on issuing TMA based PCNs for dropped kerb and double parking that they known without any shadow of a doubt need signage to be enforced - and they also know there is no approved signage for it !!)

and
2) to inform the OP so that they could tell us what regs the PCN was issued under.

Prohibition of double parking etc.
(1) In a special enforcement area a vehicle must not be parked on the carriageway in such a way that no part of the vehicle is within 50 centimetres of the edge of the carriageway.
This is subject to the following exceptions.
(2) The first exception is where the vehicle is parked wholly within a designated parking place or any other part of the carriageway where parking is specifically authorised.
A “designated parking place” means a parking place designated by order under section 6, 9, 32(1)(b) or 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (c. 27).
(3) The second exception is where the vehicle is being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes.
(4) The third exception is where—
(a) the vehicle is being used for the purposes of delivering goods to, or collecting goods from, any premises, or is being loaded from or unloaded to any premises,
(b) the delivery, collection, loading or unloading cannot reasonably be carried out in relation to those premises without the vehicle being parked as mentioned in subsection (1), and
(c) the vehicle is so parked for no longer than is necessary and for no more than 20 minutes.
(5) The fourth exception is where—
(a) the vehicle is being used in connection with any of the following—
(i) undertaking any building operation, demolition or excavation,
(ii) the collection of waste by a local authority,
(iii) removing an obstruction to traffic,
(iv) undertaking works in relation to a road, a traffic sign or road lighting, or
(v) undertaking works in relation to a sewer or water main or in relation to the supply of gas, electricity, water or communications services,
(b) it cannot be so used without being parked as mentioned in subsection (1), and
(c) it is so parked for no longer than is necessary.
(6) In this section “carriageway” has the meaning given by section 329(1) of the Highways Act 1980 (c. 66).
(7) References in this section to parking include waiting, but do not include stopping where—
(a) the driver is prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond his control or it is necessary for him to stop to avoid an accident, or
(b) the vehicle is stopped, for no longer than is necessary, for the purpose of allowing people to board or alight from it.
(8) The prohibition in this section is enforceable as if imposed—
(a) in Greater London, by an order under section 6 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984;
(b) elsewhere in England and Wales, by an order under section 1 of that Act.

The contravention is enforced as if it has been created by a traffic order under the RTRA 1984, the pcn is issued under the TMA 2004 and the exemption to issue without signs is in the LLA 2000.


(1) There shall be a prohibition on the waiting of vehicles in the circumstances mentioned in subsection (2) below and such prohibition shall be enforceable as if it had been imposed by an order under section 6 of the Act of 1984.
(2) The circumstances in which the waiting of vehicles is prohibited under subsection (1) above are where—
(a) the vehicle is on the carriageway of a road and wholly or partly within a special parking area; and
(b) no part of the vehicle is within 50 centimetres of the edge of the carriageway; and
(c) the vehicle is not wholly within a designated parking place or any other part of a road in respect of which the waiting of vehicles is specifically authorised.
(3) Nothing in subsection (1) above shall require the placing of any traffic signs in connection with the prohibition thereby imposed.

Originally Posted by lamma

example argument for dropped kerbs.

the TMA 2004 does not use the LLA&TfL 2003 act as an empowering act and makes no reference to the act at all. Therefore the contravention of parking adjacent to a dropped footway is controlled by section 86 of the TMA 2004.
Section 86 is imposed as if by order under section 6 of the RTRA 1984.
Therefore, the parking restriction is required to be signed, as the TMA 2004
unlike the LLA&TfL Act 2003 does not contain a clause negating the need for a traffic sign as required by reg 18(1) of the Traffic Order Procedures 1996."

"Plus (the from the Minutes of a BPA meeting)

" The regulations for Dropped footways and double parking contain an oversight. TMA does not include the exemption previously allowed for enforcement without signage. They have left in place the legislation but this could be challenged by a clever lawyer. Reference to Signage Department of the DfT is recommended. Steps are being taken to correct this. (Take care about making this generally available)"

Their emphasis. !!!!

As I understand it the 'steps' have not been taken

Dept Transport..


Sections 85 and 86 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 (TMA), came into force on 31 March 2008. These sections prohibit double parking and parking at dropped footways in special enforcement areas. They apply to England and Wales. The prohibitions in these sections are enforceable as if they were imposed by Traffic Regulation Orders made under sections 1 (in Greater London) or 6 (elsewhere in England and Wales) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. The relevant provisions in the local legislation in relation to London were left in place to enable local authorities in London to continue to enforce these prohibitions without traffic signs and/or road makings.
The Government is of the view that traffic signs and road markings should not be required in order to enforce these prohibitions under the TMA and we have been considering how to make this clear in the legislation. We have concluded that a small change can be made to Regulation 18 of the Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 to clarify that these prohibitions can be enforced without traffic signs or road markings and to ensure consistency throughout England. I attach a draft Statutory Instrument.

I think the opinion of the DofT trumps a quote from a BPA meeting.

The TMA allows Councils to enforce contraventions of the RTRA 1984, double parking is a contravention of the act as stated in the LLA 2000. Why you mention the 2003 act I do not know as it has nothing at all to do with double parking??

LLA 2000

Designated parking places
(1) There shall be a prohibition on the waiting of vehicles in the circumstances mentioned in subsection (2) below and such prohibition shall be enforceable as if it had been imposed by an order under section 6 of the Act of 1984.
(2) The circumstances in which the waiting of vehicles is prohibited under subsection (1) above are where—
(a) the vehicle is on the carriageway of a road and wholly or partly within a special parking area; and
(b) no part of the vehicle is within 50 centimetres of the edge of the carriageway; and
(c) the vehicle is not wholly within a designated parking place or any other part of a road in respect of which the waiting of vehicles is specifically authorised.
(3) Nothing in subsection (1) above shall require the placing of any traffic signs in connection with the prohibition thereby imposed

TMA 2004

Contraventions relating to parking places in Greater London

2 (1) In Greater London there is a parking contravention in relation to a vehicle if the vehicle is stationary in a parking place and—
(a) the vehicle has been left—
(i) otherwise than as authorised by or under any order relating to the parking place, or
(ii) beyond the period of parking that has been paid for,
(b) no parking charge payable with respect to the vehicle has been paid, or
(c) there has been, with respect to the vehicle, a contravention of any provision made by or under any order relating to the parking place.
(2) In sub-paragraph (1) “parking place” means—
(a) a parking place designated by an order made under section 6, 9 or 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (c. 27), or
(b) an off-street parking place provided under section 32(1)(a) of that Act.

sorry but published DfT 'opinion' means squat.

Follow the legislation as I laid it out.

its a lacuna - quoting reams of acts that contain a lacuna does nor illustrate the lacuna - as you well know.

The DfT knows full well about this and of the lack of approved signage.

TMA issued PCNS for dropped kerbs and double parking are challengable as laid out in the thread, the DfT knows it, and the councils know it - and still they issue tickets for it.

Originally Posted by lamma

sorry but published DfT 'opinion' means squat.

Follow the legislation as I laid it out.

its a lacuna - quoting reams of acts that contain a lacuna does nor illustrate the lacuna - as you well know.

The DfT knows full well about this and of the lack of approved signage.

TMA issued PCNS for dropped kerbs and double parking are challengable as laid out in the thread, the DfT knows it, and the councils know it - and still they issue tickets for it.

Yes everyone knows it which is why its only enforced in London using legislation that allows it and why the statute is being amended to clarify the situation elsewhere, if you want to delude yourself and advise others thats enforcing it in London is not legal then feel free. Obviously the Dept of Transport, PATAS and every London Authority is not as knowledgable as you.

I am very glad you have finally agreed that this is widely known by all the councils and the DfT.
and that it is not yet fixed.

It would have saved quite a few posts if this had happened quicker.

delude myself !!

sorry but this is not only being enforced in London.
and I seem to recall some london PCNs quoting only the TMA.

have a Guest lurk on 'the other forum' as I do and you will see a few.

Originally Posted by lamma

I am very glad you have finally agreed that this is widely known by all the councils and the DfT.
and that it is not yet fixed.

It would have saved quite a few posts if this had happened quicker.

delude myself !!

sorry but this is not only being enforced in London.
and I seem to recall some london PCNs quoting only the TMA.

have a Guest lurk on 'the other forum' as I do and you will see a few.

I never said Councils were not aware it was unenforceable outside London and cannot see how this helps the OP since the pcn was issued in London. The PCN does not need to quote the law that covers the contravention only the one the PCN is issued under which is the TMA 2004. The fact that orders are made under 1984 regs or anything else regarding the contravention is not required on the PCN. Quoting an out of context quote from a meeting by the BPA is not really any help to the OP. There is a clear statement in the LLA 2000 that signs are not needed in London for 50 cms from kerb and the authority to issue to contraventions of 1984 orders in the TMA 2000. If 50 cms from kerb is treated as an order under the 1984 regs then London councils can enforce for a breach of the regs hence the PCN is valid. The fact that this is not understood by members of other forums is not really my problem.

It is well understood.

And it is not out of context.

we need to the OP to respond to the TMA issue.

Sorry guys im a complete noob to all the information you have written!

Please advise me on where I should go, pay the fine, If u need photocopies of the letters? etc.

Thanks

was the pcn issued under the TMA ?

what regulations does it quote ?