Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.
The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights
a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.
Can anyone shed some light on this? Googles no help.
I sent Section 78 request to Capital One, they replied with a copy of the T&C's!! NOT the orignal agreement.
This is an exact quote from the letter they sent me;
"Please find enclosed a copy of you credit agreement as requested. In accordance with section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copy Documents) Regulations 1983, this is your original agreement, and if any terms have been varied, then the copy agreement will include the updated terms. In addition, your personal details, the signature box, signature and date of signature have been omited from the copy provded as permitted under Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copy Documents) Regulations 1983."
Now, what they have sent is obviosuly NOT the original agreement at all, as for one, the copy they sent is basically just T&C's and are printed on the back of the blumin letter that they sent me!
Anyone have any adivce, help, or suggestions? Thanks.
It seems to be the latest tact that the creditors are taking as I had the same thing from CitiCards and was advised to send the following...modify to suit...
I note that you have replied to the above by sending your companies current terms and conditions. I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.
To clarify, just sending the terms and conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.
This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;
As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.
Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:
Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;
And more importantly
Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.
You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.
Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.
The regulations state: (2) There may be omitted from any such copy- (a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy; (b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);
It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.
The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.
Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.
It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.
I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues.
In either case, please confirm that you have, in your possession, a credit agreement that is in all ways fully compliant with the Consumer Credit At 1974, as amended, and the subsequent regulations made there under.
For the avoidance of doubt, if you are in possession of such a document, but are unable to supply me with a true copy of it, please outline your reasons why you are unable to supply it to me in your reply.
Further more, I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature. I require this as I have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed.
Obviously if the agreement is improperly executed I would be entitled to ask the Court to consider the agreement and make a declaration of the rights of parties to the agreement. (s.142(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974)
I must stress this part of my request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore an unsigned copy will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances
Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document.
I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which i have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides
I look forward to your reply and would ask for a response by XXX
If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing!
You can take a step further and send a Subject access request with the Statutory fee of £10.00 this entitles you to receive all data on you as a data subject.They must comply with your SAR within 40 days failure to do so should result in a formal complaint to the Information Commissioners Office who has the authority to enforce them to send you the data.
If you decide to do this it is always worth sending you mail recorded delivery so you can track and ensure delivery.
There are templates on the site for SAR.
I have no legal training and the advice I offer is a matter of support. Before you commit to any Legal action you are advised to contact a qualified legal practitioner. ------------------------------------------------
Bank charge successes:
Halifax - Full settlement incl interest.
HSBC - Settlement, goodwill no admission of liability about 75% of claim.
RBS - Settlement, goodwill no admission of liability about 70% of claim.
2 ongoing claims for bank charges with HSBC with more to come. (Supreme Court ruling could have upset these claims) They did
PPI Successes
PPI 4 settlements on 9 loans. FOS involvement on 7 added on the 8 % Statutory interest another 30% to both.
2 claims settled in full with LV without FOS involvement.
2 claims settled in full with HSBC without FOS involvement
PPI Claims ongoing with:
Cap one Now with the FOS
Barclays. Paid up today 24/04/10 cheque received for over £4,500 and in the bank.
LTSB still have to decide on this as their SAR production was abysmal. Papers data mixed up documents missing etc
Please do not PM me for advice as it may be sometime before I can respond.
Keep at them. Do not give way and do not accept all they tell you, they will delay and stall for as long as they can to prevent repaying you your mis-sold PPI.
Can anyone shed some light on this? Googles no help.
I sent Section 78 request to Capital One, they replied with a copy of the T&C's!! NOT the orignal agreement.
This is an exact quote from the letter they sent me;
"Please find enclosed a copy of you credit agreement as requested. In accordance with section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copy Documents) Regulations 1983, this is your original agreement, and if any terms have been varied, then the copy agreement will include the updated terms. In addition, your personal details, the signature box, signature and date of signature have been omited from the copy provded as permitted under Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copy Documents) Regulations 1983."
Now, what they have sent is obviosuly NOT the original agreement at all, as for one, the copy they sent is basically just T&C's and are printed on the back of the blumin letter that they sent me!
Anyone have any adivce, help, or suggestions? Thanks.
I have got the same letter. I can't find any reference whatsoever to Reg 3, CC (C N & C D) Regs 1983, I think I'll write to Crap 1 and ask them to send me a copy of them.
CONSUMER CREDIT
The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) (amendment) Regulations 1989
Made3rd April 1989Laid before Parliament10th April 1989Coming into force3rd May 1989
The Secretary of State, in exercise of the powers conferred on him by sections 180(3) and 182(2) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974[1] and of all other powers enabling him in that behalf, hereby makes the following Regulations:
1. These Regulations may be cited as the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) (Amendment) Regulations 1989 and shall come into force on 3rd May 1989.
2. The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983[2] are hereby amended in regulation 11 by the addition of the following paragraph-
"(h) in the case of an unexecuted or executed agreement where the prospective regulated agreement or regulated agreement as the case may be is to be or is secured on land, any document referred to in the unexecuted agreement or executed agreement as the case may be in a case where the debtor or hirer has earlier been supplied with a copy of that document in an identical form by virtue of any requirement of the Act."
Francis Maude
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry
3rd April 1989
This Regulation refers to documents in an identical form being supplied but refers to land (I think)
"(h) in the case of an unexecuted or executed agreement where the prospective regulated agreement or regulated agreement as the case may be is to be or is secured on land, any document referred to in the unexecuted agreement or executed agreement as the case may be in a case where the debtor or hirer has earlier been supplied with a copy of that document in an identical form by virtue of any requirement of the Act."
I wonder if this would qualify for the plain engish Crystal mark :-?
HALIFAX: 13/01/07 Sent S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) letter (marked as rec'd 16/01)
Paid in full in March 07
I have no legal training and the advice I offer is a matter of support. Before you commit to any Legal action you are advised to contact a qualified legal practitioner. ------------------------------------------------
Bank charge successes:
Halifax - Full settlement incl interest.
HSBC - Settlement, goodwill no admission of liability about 75% of claim.
RBS - Settlement, goodwill no admission of liability about 70% of claim.
2 ongoing claims for bank charges with HSBC with more to come. (Supreme Court ruling could have upset these claims) They did
PPI Successes
PPI 4 settlements on 9 loans. FOS involvement on 7 added on the 8 % Statutory interest another 30% to both.
2 claims settled in full with LV without FOS involvement.
2 claims settled in full with HSBC without FOS involvement
PPI Claims ongoing with:
Cap one Now with the FOS
Barclays. Paid up today 24/04/10 cheque received for over £4,500 and in the bank.
LTSB still have to decide on this as their SAR production was abysmal. Papers data mixed up documents missing etc
Please do not PM me for advice as it may be sometime before I can respond.
Keep at them. Do not give way and do not accept all they tell you, they will delay and stall for as long as they can to prevent repaying you your mis-sold PPI.
You can take a step further and send a Subject access request with the Statutory fee of £10.00 this entitles you to receive all data on you as a data subject.They must comply with your SAR within 40 days failure to do so should result in a formal complaint to the Information Commissioners Office who has the authority to enforce them to send you the data.
If you decide to do this it is always worth sending you mail recorded delivery so you can track and ensure delivery.
There are templates on the site for SAR.
And send a Postal Order not a cheque, then they haven't got your signature
Can anyone shed some light on this? Googles no help.
I sent Section 78 request to Capital One, they replied with a copy of the T&C's!! NOT the orignal agreement.
This is an exact quote from the letter they sent me;
"Please find enclosed a copy of you credit agreement as requested. In accordance with section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copy Documents) Regulations 1983, this is your original agreement, and if any terms have been varied, then the copy agreement will include the updated terms. In addition, your personal details, the signature box, signature and date of signature have been omited from the copy provded as permitted under Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copy Documents) Regulations 1983."
Now, what they have sent is obviosuly NOT the original agreement at all, as for one, the copy they sent is basically just T&C's and are printed on the back of the blumin letter that they sent me!
Anyone have any adivce, help, or suggestions? Thanks.
This is a typical resonse from a creditor who does not have a valid credit agreement. This is often becasue the 'credit' was granted on the back of a 'flyer' or other short application form that didn't comply with the Consumer Credit Act.
The Act requires the creditor to provide a copy of the executed ( ie signed) agreement. The regulations provide that this duty is met if a 'true' copy is provided even if this doesn't have the signatures. Regulation 7 says that the terms & conditions in the agreement should be the original ones PLUS and subsequent chnages or a full set of the current ones. So the response from credit firms when they do not have a valid credit agreement is just to supply a copy of the current terms & conditions.
Why is this an issue you may ask? Well, without a valid credit agreement, the creditor cannot enforce repayment of the credit. The law deems the loan to be a voluntary disposal or gift from the credit company. See the Legal Issues forum.
Why is this an issue you may ask? Well, without a valid credit agreement, the creditor cannot enforce repayment of the credit. The law deems the loan to be a voluntary disposal or gift from the credit company. See the Legal Issues forum.
I just love this idea that RBS voluntary disposed or gifted me the £10,000 they issued on a credit card they couldn't even be bothered to keep a signed agreement for.
What a great pressie -
In effect, the creditor--by failing to ensure that he obtained a document signed by the debtor which contained all the prescribed terms--must (in the light of the provisions in ss 65(1) and 127(3) of the 1974 Act) be taken to have made a voluntary disposition, or gift, of the loan moneys to the debtor. The creditor had chosen to part with the moneys in circumstances in which it was never entitled to have them repaid;
I have had the same letter from Capital One with exactly the same wording
Originally Posted by Chris1969
Can anyone shed some light on this? Googles no help.
I sent Section 78 request to Capital One, they replied with a copy of the T&C's!! NOT the orignal agreement.
This is an exact quote from the letter they sent me;
"Please find enclosed a copy of you credit agreement as requested. In accordance with section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copy Documents) Regulations 1983, this is your original agreement, and if any terms have been varied, then the copy agreement will include the updated terms. In addition, your personal details, the signature box, signature and date of signature have been omited from the copy provded as permitted under Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copy Documents) Regulations 1983."
Now, what they have sent is obviosuly NOT the original agreement at all, as for one, the copy they sent is basically just T&C's and are printed on the back of the blumin letter that they sent me!
Anyone have any adivce, help, or suggestions? Thanks.
I have had the same letter from Capital One with exactly the same wording
My wife got the same too, and a letter from Credit Solutions Limited demanding payment. Wrote to CSL informed them account in dispute and they should hand it back to Cap one. Letter from CSL stating that they had been informed by Cap One that they had complied with S78 request. Just this very minute sent off complaint to fos.
I had a very similar letter from Halifax but they say they are sending me a "reconsitituted form of the original agreement" which is now deemed to be the original! Are they working on the principle that Smash was once potatoes?
Regulation 3 - Consumer Credit Regulations 1983!!????
, they replied with a copy of the T&C's!! NOT the orignal agreement.
Reply With Quote
Re: Regulation 3 - Consumer Credit Regulations 1983!!????
Originally Posted by Chris1969
