Re: PPI Letter to GE Money - Mother retired & on benefits when she was signed up!

**meerkatsmimm** · 15th April 2009 11:58

Hi Folks,

Ive typed up this letter for my mother to send to GE Money, as they have refused to repay her PPI icon

insurance paid on her account.

She yesterday recieved her application form in response to a CCA request and the 'qualifying questions' for the account werent marked, although the agent in store signed the PPI and customer declaration boxes with a large 'X', encouraging her to sign in both places to complete the application.

As you will read she suffers from mental ill health and at the time of her application, she was on benefits and had been medically retired from work 4 years previously. Had the agent carried out the correct qualifying proceedure at the time of application, it would have been very clear to them that my mother could never benefit from PPi so it was just a waste of time adding it. Although as we all know, they didnt care because there was so much money being made, from the person filling out the instore form right the way to the top!

Having read around the forums, I have wrote the following lettter. I have a seperate thread for this under store cards because the application she recieved isnt her Credit Agreement - but thats another story! However, I wanted to run this past you all on the PPi board to see if it was worded correctly.

I know I may have been a bit repetitive/ long winded at times, but thats just my way!

Thanks in advance.

-----------

Dear Ms. McDermott,

Thank you for your recent letter dated 7th April 2009, the contents of which are noted. I appreciate your quick response to my original letter which you received on 6th April 2009.

Having been in contact with your company on several occasions regarding PPI insurance that was applied to my account. I can see from the application form you have provided me with that the representative of Debenhams/ GE Money who completed the application for credit on your behalf, did so with haste, in that they failed to complete the document in full.

Having been retired from work in 1997, due to a medical diagnosis of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and mental instability, as a result of witnessing my husband’s murder while pregnant with our first child in 1978, I was in receipt of benefits at the time of my application for a Debenhams store card in 2001.

Had your representative completed the application form in full, they would have been liable to complete the first section of the document, entitled ‘before you begin, can you say yes to these statements?’ Having luckily received back my initial application form as a result of my request to you for my Credit Card Agreement, it is clear that none of the 3 tick boxes were selected by your store representative at the time of my application. In fact all of the information was inputted on the form by your representative, asking me only to sign in two places, both marked by a large ‘X’, in order to complete my application.

As responsible lenders, it is expected of you and your agents to explain in full the benefits and eligibility (so the pro’s and the CON’S) of any aspects of any application, particularly those that involve additional costs or insurance policies. These terms are made quite clear by the fos. As a lay consumer I am not knowledgeable of such financial issues, hence why the FOS produce guidelines requiring providers to explain all aspects ‘before’ selling or issuing such policies.

I feel it is best to explain how I have been mis-sold this policy, putting me in a position whereby I have made substantial payments to GE Money in the last 8 years, amounting to several thousand pounds, with it being extremely clear that I WOULD NEVER be able to issue a claim on the same policy.

If you state in response to me that your agent acted responsibly and that the documents were completed correctly and that the policy was not mis-sold, my response will be that if that is the case, then your agent had they asked about my employment status, would have gained the knowledge of my status as retired and also that I had a pre-existing medical condition, both of which render me ineligible for ever making a PPi claim, so your agent should have informed me that taking such a policy out would be a waste of my money and never allowed the application form to be completed requesting account cover to be included. If however, your agent failed to identify this information at the point of completing the first questions on the application, they would have had a second opportunity to explain the benefits and eligibility of PPi account cover (as you/they are required to do by the F O S who produce the regulations for such sales) before I was pushed into signing section 2, ‘protecting your account’. I say pushed because your agent simply asked me to sign where the document was marked twice by an ‘X’ before informing me that the application form was compete.

I therefore suggest that your agent, in their haste to get the ‘sale’ of another store card application, raced through the application process, omitting to complete various pertinent aspects of the application form, never took on board my retired status or pre-existing medical condition (obviously then deciding not to complete the 1st three tick boxes which would have ascertained my employment status and at the same time, highlighting a serious flaw in GE Monies/Debenhams compliance levels as this should have been picked up by the senior member of staff who signed the application on 28.3.01) and went on to complete the rest of the personal details, choosing to skim over the highlights of your PPi account cover (again which are highlighted at the top of the application, other than to make it clear to me that it offered ‘complete peace of mind’, as stated in the application form) and not taking the time to ask or explain if the policy would be relevant, claimable upon or a complete waste of time to me. Obviously, as has been proved widely, large commissions were paid for selling such PPI account cover policies and the net result was as happened in my instance, the gain to your agent outweighed their responsibility to explain whether or not I was eligible for such a policy, and they choose their gain over my loss.

Ultimately, the final responsibility lies with you as the lender and provider of the policy. As I have been suffering greatly with mental instability I have for many years been unable to cope with or recognise various policies I made applications for and as a result I was severely taken advantage of by many institutions, who have benefited from my years of paying mis-sold and illegal policies which are worth less than the value of the paper they are printed on.

Approaching pensionable age, my family are assisting me in gaining some control back to my financial circumstances, before I am left penniless. As you will I am sure understand, losing ones husband at such a young age (25) and in such a violent way, can have devastating consequences and it is very easy for a vunerable person such as myself to get taken advantage of.

Further to this, I never received any customer copy of this application form, nor any policy documents at any stage in the last 8 years, nor did I receive any notification that the PPI rate was to increase quite substantially over the years (all have only been made clear since receiving your letter dated 7th April 2009.) As a result I never had the information or opportunity to opt out of this agreement.

Therefore I wish to make it clear that since I could never claim on this policy (which I finally managed to cancel in December 200

, and that it was mis-sold to me due to the agent failing to explain or identify that I was ineligible from the very outset of my application, then I am entitled to receive back all PPI payments paid to GE Money/Debenhams for the above account from the date of the application, 27th March 2001, plus 8% compound interest icon

.

Having already contacted you about this issue several months ago, I feel that 14 days is a reasonable amount of time to allow you to make this payment, directly to me by cheque to my address at the top of this letter. I do not wish for this amount to be credited to my account as it came from my bank account, not Debenhams ‘store credit’ and my account is currently up to date.

Should you not fulfil my request within the time frame I have allowed, I am prepared to initiate legal action via the courts in my quest to get back my money which was taken from me with the intention of never providing anything in return, plus contractual levels of interest being 28% APR.

I have already taken legal advice about this claim and would be entitled to legal aid should the need arise.

Please contact me only by letter as I do not wish to correspond with your company by any other means.

Yours faithfully,

**alanalana** · 16th April 2009 20:54

Hello meerkatsmimm,

If they fail to reply within the 14 days you give them the next step would be a Subject access request icon

asking for all the data and then after you receive the information you have the choice of complaining to the Financial Ombudsman Service or Court IMO the fos icon

is the better initial option as it still leaves you with Court action later. If you go to court and you must be fully prepared for Court hence the need for a SAR icon

but lose then the FOS will not take up your claim.

aa

**meerkatsmimm** · 17th April 2009 01:41

Thanks Alana,

I truely hope this is enough to get them to pay back the PPI icon

, although as ive seen, each case is treated differently. In saying that ive read some positive reports from this approach, so fingers crossed!

I appreciate your input and support thanks for checking it over!

**meerkatsmimm** · 30th April 2009 16:19

Well an update here folks,

Two letters from GE with regards this, one saying they are investigating it and another from another department, saying its being investigated.

They go on to say that it was my mother's responsibility to understand whether or not she needed this insurance, BEFORE she signed for it and while they appreciate the application had perhaps been marked by their agent, its my mother who signed her name to it so its her responsibility to have understood what she was being asked to sign.

They go on to say that regardless of her pre-existing medical condition (which they are only aware about now, since she informed them) she would have been covered under the PPI icon

for any other illness except her pre-existing condition.

They then went on to say that regardless of her pre-existing condition and the fact that she was retired, the PPI was a 'breadwinners policy' meaning that if her spouse was making the payments and fell ill or lost their job, they would be covered. Did they not read that my mother witnessed her husband's own murder at the age of 25? Could they be any more insensitive or dismissive?

So, they have given her 40 days to respond with proof that she was on benefits at the time of application and also a letter from her doctor explaining the medical condition and they will investigate further.

So in summary, they have placed their failings to:

1. complete the application in full
2. check if my mother was employed or had a pre-existing medical condition
3. check the application for compliance before approving it

Completely at my mothers door.

I struggle to find words to respond to this letter, (sorry I dont have it here to scan it in full, but I will scan when I get it), but I will now SAR icon

them right away, together with the evidence they say they require.

The account will also be placed in dispute because all they have provided is a copy of an application form, so a CPR letter will go with this as well.

Can they really get away with laying the blame at my mothers door, would their agent not have been ultimately responsible for checking eligibility before signing a potential customer up?

The 3 qualifying questions on the application that were unticked by the agent, would have allowed them to qualify her eligibility - so I would assume these were essential parts to her application for credit (and were the responsbility of the agent to complete, which they didnt do) otherwise they would not be the first section on the application form!!

Any advice about how to word the next letter to GE Money would be greatly appreciated.

**alanalana** · 30th April 2009 18:48

Well an update here folks,

Two letters from GE with regards this, one saying they are investigating it and another from another department, saying its being investigated.

They go on to say that it was my mother's responsibility to understand whether or not she needed this insurance, BEFORE she signed for it and while they appreciate the application had perhaps been marked by their agent, its my mother who signed her name to it so its her responsibility to have understood what she was being asked to sign. (The onus is on the creditor to ensure the product is suitable to the debtor by asking relevant questions of the debtor and filling in an appropriate questionnaire to ensure the questions are asked of the consumer.)

They go on to say that regardless of her pre-existing medical condition (which they are only aware about now, since she informed them) she would have been covered under the PPI icon

for any other illness except her pre-existing condition. (the PPI is still mis-sold as it would not cover a pre existing medical condition and they did not ask if there was a pre existing medical condition at the point of sale, that could be an exclusion on the policy should a claim be required. Remember the most likelyhood of a claim is for a pre existing condition flaring up again)

They then went on to say that regardless of her pre-existing condition and the fact that she was retired, the PPI was a 'breadwinners policy' meaning that if her spouse was making the payments and fell ill or lost their job, they would be covered. Did they not read that my mother witnessed her husband's own murder at the age of 25? Could they be any more insensitive or dismissive?

So, they have given her 40 days to respond with proof that she was on benefits at the time of application and also a letter from her doctor explaining the medical condition and they will investigate further. (They have no right IMO to impose a timescale for response as you are not under any statutory obligation at law. You are claiming mis-selling from them not the other way around.)

So in summary, they have placed their failings to:

1. complete the application in full
2. check if my mother was employed or had a pre-existing medical condition
3. check the application for compliance before approving it

Completely at my mothers door.

I struggle to find words to respond to this letter, (sorry I dont have it here to scan it in full, but I will scan when I get it), but I will now Subject access request icon

them right away, together with the evidence they say they require.

See my comments in blue if you supply medical evidence to them and any other documentation they require with the SAR icon

. I would suggest if they fail to respond to either the SAR or to make an offer within 40 days take the matter further. fos icon

would be the option IMO as it requires no fee and the fact you submit a complaint to the FOS will cost GE £500 for the FOS to investigate. Thee only drawback is the time it takes. The other option is Court of which I have no experience on PPI issues.

Hope this helps to keep you motivated

aa

**meerkatsmimm** · 30th April 2009 19:09

Hi AA,

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

GE's whole response was both dismissive and blunt, which I guess is the typical attitude they take to try to get rid of you.

However, thanks for clarifying the points and I will add these in my letter of response, together with the SAR icon

and I also think A CPR letter is due to be sent as they have only supplied an application form in response to my mother's CCA request and I want them to know we are being extremely serious. Unlike ourselves, my mother is still paying these jokers, so we are in the driving seat with her accounts!

Thanks again x

**alanalana** · 30th April 2009 20:03

Welcome of course,

always here to try and assist if I can

**meerkatsmimm** · 21st June 2009 22:42

Well folks its been a little while, but we need to change this title to WON!

There are some fine details I need a little advice on so if Alana or anybody else senior could advise that would be great.

We supplied the doctors details and also information on my mothers benefits and the date they started. As a response GE sent a letter back admitting that my mother would have been ineligable for the insurance and should never have been sold it. I dont have all the details to hand, but they have refunded her just over £4,000!

NOW, amazing as that is, they have also used the bulk of that to settle her balance with her debehams card, something we did not ask for and I dont understand why it has been done. She mised this months payment due to the account being in dispute although they will only see the DD having been cancelled, nothing else formal was sent to them, so it should just be an administrative error or put down to an error on her part.

Our letters clearly stated that the full amount was to be paid to her in a cheque and we asked that if it wasnt sent within 7 days to include 8% statutory interest icon

, then we would want contractual interest at 28% added. Ive since found out that she could claim both.

Their payment to her is made up of PPI icon

charges, and what they call compensation at 8% on top.

They have cleared her Debenhams account and credited the remainder to this same account, over £1000 now in credit.

In the meantime her SAR icon

has finally arrived, long overdue. This is missing all statements before 2004 (so 3 years since she opened the account) and is missing many monthly statements of the years in between.

Having spoken with her she also states that other insurances have been added, card protection at £70 a time and no-where in the call logs supplied does it mention her asking or agreeing to these payments.

It also looks as though they have only supplied her with a partial refund of PPi for the last 4 years and she has been paying for 8.

So, great news it is, and especially so with them admitting in writing that she should never have been sold it as she was ineligible. But:

1: how do we get them to send her all monies owed directly to her, she has other creditors that could get a pro-rata payment from this settlement.

2: How do we go after them with such an incomplete SAR icon

for all amounts she has paid over all the years?

3: How can we now add into the claim the contractual interest, as they were way outside our timeframes for responding and to be honest, they have admitted the mistake (they have had this money off her in interest, so its hers to reclaim) and I want her to get all she deserves back?

Thanks in advance and perhaps Alana or one of the mods would change this to WON in the title please?

Your support and encouragement is appreciated always and its in no small part that CAG has helped get this sorted. When she gets her money sorted out from them I will ask her to make a donation icon

.

Many thanks,

meerkat x

**meerkatsmimm** · 22nd June 2009 11:01

Bit more info on this since yesterday....

It turns out they have only provided 46 out of 100 months worth of statements and only repaid PPI icon

from the statements sent.

The repayment has been worked out as:

PPI premiums paid

interest icon

levied - this would be the contractual interest as its quite a large payment

Compensation at 8%.

They also state in their letter to my mum that the PPI did not start until late 2003, yet they have no proof of this anywhere in the SAR icon

. Its very strange that the PPI was requested at the time the account was opened, 2 years earlier, but they dont offer any explanation for this. We assume it is because they are hoping she cannot prove this as she has no statements from this period either (and obviously they havent provided them in the SAR icon

!)

On a rough guess I reckon she is due another £2k minimum, including the interest, so what way she we take this back to them?

Thanks,

meerkat x

**alanalana** · 22nd June 2009 21:24

There is a lot of information on your previous two posts.

Well folks its been a little while, but we need to change this title to WON!

There are some fine details I need a little advice on so if Alana or anybody else senior could advise that would be great.

We supplied the doctors details and also information on my mothers benefits and the date they started. As a response GE sent a letter back admitting that my mother would have been ineligable for the insurance and should never have been sold it. I dont have all the details to hand, but they have refunded her just over £4,000! (nice)

NOW, amazing as that is, they have also used the bulk of that to settle her balance with her debehams card, something we did not ask for and I dont understand why it has been done. (IMO this should not have happened as only one DD missed due to the account being disputed. The £4.000 should have been paid IMO by a personal cheque) She mised this months payment due to the account being in dispute although they will only see the DD having been cancelled, nothing else formal was sent to them, so it should just be an administrative error or put down to an error on her part.

Our letters clearly stated that the full amount was to be paid to her in a cheque and we asked that if it wasnt sent within 7 days to include 8% statutory interest icon

, then we would want contractual interest at 28% added. Ive since found out that she could claim both.

Their payment to her is made up of PPI charges, and what they call compensation at 8% on top. (time to write again and complain that the interest on the PPI figures has not been repaid only the PPI premiums and 8% statutory interest)

They have cleared her Debenhams account and credited the remainder to this same account, over £1000 now in credit.

In the meantime her SAR icon

has finally arrived, long overdue. This is missing all statements before 2004 (so 3 years since she opened the account) and is missing many monthly statements of the years in between. (write back again and insist on the missing statements and point out that all documentations should be retained on a running account until a period of six years after the last transaction on the account)

Having spoken with her she also states that other insurances have been added, card protection at £70 a time and no-where in the call logs supplied does it mention her asking or agreeing to these payments.

It also looks as though they have only supplied her with a partial refund of PPi for the last 4 years and she has been paying for 8.

So, great news it is, and especially so with them admitting in writing that she should never have been sold it as she was ineligible. But:

1: how do we get them to send her all monies owed directly to her, she has other creditors that could get a pro-rata payment from this settlement. (As above write back and tell them you are exremely unhappy at the way they have failed to comply fully with your Subject access request icon

. The way they have used the refund of a mis-sold product to pay off the balance of the care instead of refunding by a personal cheque)

2: How do we go after them with such an incomplete SAR for all amounts she has paid over all the years? ( You could start with a letter of non compliance with the SAR but IMO raise an immediate complaint with the Information Commissioners Office and ask them to enforce GE Money to send all the data as requested in your SAR)

3: How can we now add into the claim the contractual interest, as they were way outside our timeframes for responding and to be honest, they have admitted the mistake (they have had this money off her in interest, so its hers to reclaim) and I want her to get all she deserves back? ( again in your letter explain that any failure by them to refund the contractual interest will result in a formal complaint to the Financial Ombudsman icon

Service)

Thanks in advance and perhaps Alana or one of the mods would change this to WON in the title please?

Your support and encouragement is appreciated always and its in no small part that CAG has helped get this sorted. When she gets her money sorted out from them I will ask her to make a donation icon

.

Many thanks,

For the Information Commissioners office. (this is an option if the DSAR is not complied with)
http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...ess_rights.pdf

Information Commissioner's Office - Information Commissioners Office

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...lain_final.pdf

Complaints - Information Commissioners Office

Links that may help with your claim for Mis-sold PPI
Financial Ombudsman Service

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.u...-insurance.pdf

These links should help you along the way.

aa

**meerkatsmimm** · 22nd June 2009 22:24

Thanks alana,

Thats good advice and given the Breakdown icon

of what they have sent her, she needs to go after it all.

Today she received a cheque for the balance - I did ask it elsewhere because I was panicing that my mum might cash it before you had a chance to respond - but she thankfully hasnt.

Should she be cashing this cheque for the balance and stating that she accepts that in part payment, pending the refund of the monies paid to clear the account and also any further months of PPI icon

that they havent included?

Thanks again,

meerkat x

**alanalana** · 22nd June 2009 22:49

Thanks alana,

Thats good advice and given the Breakdown icon

of what they have sent her, she needs to go after it all.

Today she received a cheque for the balance - I did ask it elsewhere because I was panicing that my mum might cash it before you had a chance to respond - but she thankfully hasnt.

Should she be cashing this cheque for the balance and stating that she accepts that in part payment, pending the refund of the monies paid to clear the account and also any further months of PPI icon

that they havent included?

Thanks again,

meerkat x

Yes by all means accept the cheque as part payment and write to tell them this is what you are doing, only accepting the cheque as part payment on mis-sold PPI and that you intend to proceed further to reclaim the full amount through the fos icon

or Court (your choice).

aa

**meerkatsmimm** · 22nd June 2009 23:02

Thanks AA,

Can you change the title to WON for me as well please, must not forget its been a victory none the less!

meerkat x

**citizenB** · 24th June 2009 09:44

Hi meerkat,

Excellent news

I will leave your thread here until Mum receives the balance, but have amended the title to WON.

Let us know when you want moving to the "success" forums

**alanalana** · 24th June 2009 12:46

Thanks AA,

Can you change the title to WON for me as well please, must not forget its been a victory none the less!

meerkat x

We have a slight technical hitch on changing your thread title to won. Hopefully it will be resolved in the early hours tomorrow.

**meerkatsmimm** · 24th June 2009 12:59

Thanks AA,

CB let me know this as well. Its no problem.

Meerkat x

**meerkatsmimm** · 18th July 2009 09:50

Hi Everyone,

We have an update and response from GE Money/ Santander icon

on this.

We wrote back to them stating they hadnt fulfilled the re-claim and that they should have infact paid a total of almost £9k when premiums for the missed periods were assumed and interest icon

added.

We didnt cash the cheque sent with the original letter and told them they had 14 days to repond with full repayment including interest, otherwise we would be taking this to court. They did acknowledge this was mis-sold afterall.

They have wrote back stating a figure of payments made, with less than £200 difference between what we state my mum paid and what they now suggest she did pay, so we were not too far out.

In their original letter they stated her PPI icon

didnt start for over 2 years after her account was applied for - in their most recent letter they state that it did start with the account application, but that their was an 'upgrade' at the later date (some 2 and a half years into making payments) and they hope that clarifies the matter for us! lol. We werent the ones confused, they were!

I cant scan the letter up at present, but ill quote in full the following paragraph:

" Having made some enquiries I can confirm that when we agree to refund a mis-sold insurance complaint, the refund will credit the account if there is an outstanding balance. Once the balance is paid in full, any remaining money is sent to the customer as happened in this case. The reasoning behind this process is that we are putting the customer into the position that they would have been in had the insurance never been charged"

That statement is very silly and confusing.

Had my mum never been charged the ineligible PPi, she would have been better off to the amount of money charged, plus interest charged, plus any benefits from the usage of the money they had off her. Her GE Account would also be in the same standing, that being her owing them money, but then they agreed to that when they offered her the account - it wasnt on the previso that she also contributed to a PPi cover that would enrich them, but never provide her with any benefit.

They also state that the ICO is fully aware of the fact that they are unable to retrive the many monthy statements that they should hold for my mothers account, but dont.

So, given all of this, what is now the process for taking these monkeys to court?

Should my mum accept the cheque in part payment and acknowledge the same in a letter to them? Does she send the letter before she cashes the cheque?

We want to speed this into the courts, because I am assuming they wont want it to go that far. Also intending to claim for restitution icon

on the fact my mum lost out on the usage of this money over the years and they benefited from it, and re-invested it several times over most probably.

Perhaps if Alana or CB could suggest the best way to put the claim in, it would be most appreciated.

I should also say my mum is in Northern Ireland, if that makes any difference.

Many thanks,

meerkat x

**beachcomber60** · 18th July 2009 10:43

Morning MK,

Hope you well.

Both myself and OH have received fob off letters from Santander icon

this week.

Could I ask if your Mum had the older style Debenhams application/agreement? The reason is that GE have only provided very poor copy of a microfiche and have admitted the original is no longer in existence, I am very interested in the word in the box relating to PPI icon

Santander have stated that we both signed the box for ppi - there is no where to sign nor a tick box - which indicates to me that ppi wasnt optional as we can just make out something along the lines of 'if you do not wish to have ppi simply use the Freepost to return your card' - would be very interested if anyone had a readable copy of that section.

Keep at them - we intend fighting, too much at stake not too.

Beachy

**meerkatsmimm** · 19th July 2009 15:12

Hi Beachy,

I dont think she does have the older style agreement, but it should be on the forum under her GE thread if you can search it out!

Bumping this for some more advice folks, thanks.

meerkat x

**alanalana** · 19th July 2009 21:04

Meerkatsmimm,

If you wish to proceed to court action then that is a choice I would be unwise to try and help you with as I have very limited knowledge on court issues. However you may be able to obtain advice from this forum.

Legal Issues

aa

Thread: Re: PPI Letter to GE Money - Mother retired & on benefits when she was signed up!

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