Thread: Unfair terms and conditions pay and display machines

I wonder if anyone has a view , In several London boroughs the pay and display machines only issue tickets in 20 minute units , e.g 30p for 20 minutes , 60p for 40 minutes etc. Now if one were to pay 40p one still only gets 20 minutes and no change !!, surely this is wrong ; If you were 2 minutes over the 20 minutes you would get a p.c.n even if you had paid for it . Kensington and Chelsea council have machines that give you your exact minutes for the coins , so it is not a technology issue . Now I know the councils need our money but why are we topping up their pensions with our tips ?

If its a one hour maximum stay and costs £1.50 an hour what would expect it happen if you put £2 coin in?
The same would apply if the machine was in use lets say 10am-4.00pm and cost £1 per hour you arrive at 15.30 and put a £1 in, would you expect it to give you a ticket to 4.30 when at 4pm its a no parking zone and you would be parked on a parking restriction?

Well some change would be nice , I would expect same if I bought some chocolate in a machine , after all we have put a man on the moon allegedly, so the technology is there .
The point is these machines are cynically allowed to be fundamentally unfair to maximize revenue , in my opinion .
The question is whether by buying a ticket are you engaging in a contact of any sort ? If so could one seek remedy as the contract is unfair , I am obviously not a lawyer , so I would welcome any input from anyone who knows better . I would definately ask for my money back even if it was 10p as I do not like to be ripped off by so called public servants . Its the Principle , if someone picked up the loose change in your house , would you think 'its only 20p'.

its free money - ever known a council not to be avaricious ? they will some text on the machine saying no change given and claim its your fault for not carrying all the change you may possibly need.

This has crossed my mind before when using council pay and display machines.

I more or less guessed what happens to the extra 20p when I put in £1 for an 80p and get no change - the Council keeps it of course - but how do they financially account for the extra 20p? The ticket says 80p was paid and they have 80p, but there is no need to account for the 20p as on paper they never received it.

So is there a draw full of 20p pieces that they don;t have in each Council?

Christmas Party?

You will probably find that most Council on street parking barely breaks even its not the big money spinner you may like to think it is.

if one reads the parliamentary minutes or checks the filed minutes of council meetings one can find many references to 'releasing surplus' from parking income.
breaking even on a budget is very different from the full financial picture.
just look at the Whole of Government Accounts spreadsheet for a good examplar. Ignore budget figures they do not represent the full financial picture. of course its 'budgets' that councils use to justify increasing taxes and costs etc. they never talk about their investments and investment income do they ?

Yes well then it must be a loss leader to lead us poor flies into the trap of p.c.n s relying on human fallibility . The whole thing is setup like a game of musical chairs where I live ; Not enough pay and display bays for demand so without us worthless offenders they wouldn't have an industry and there would be tens of thousands of people in parking depts throughout the land with no jobs , they should throw us a thank you party.
The point is regardless of how much money they do or don't make ., that they are still overcharging and under changing

Originally Posted by lamma

if one reads the parliamentary minutes or checks the filed minutes of council meetings one can find many references to 'releasing surplus' from parking income.
breaking even on a budget is very different from the full financial picture.
just look at the Whole of Government Accounts spreadsheet for a good examplar. Ignore budget figures they do not represent the full financial picture. of course its 'budgets' that councils use to justify increasing taxes and costs etc. they never talk about their investments and investment income do they ?

I never said there was never going to be a surplus from parking I said Council on-street parking ie pay and display didn't make much money. PCNs, permits and Car Parks are more 'profitable' in the broadest sense of the word. Pay and display machines are costly to buy and maintain and often ony cover a few bays producing little income. You then have to factor in the cost of implementing them ie signage, markings, public consultation, legal work in making TRO, p&d tickets and enforcement and in the first couple of years a loss is more likely than a profit.

Flicking through my copy of 'Parking Review' , the magazine for the parking industry , incorporating 'The Enforcers' , the magazine for the debt -collecting industry , illuminating reads both and how thoughtful to package them together, I came across adverts for pay and display machines ,incl {change giving option ] ,standard non change machines , i.e the ones I am upset about are cheaper , there fore a case of double bubble for the councils , do costs supersede a duty of care ? Is there a lawyer in the house , bring me my bow of bristling brief , in Englands Green and pleasant carpark facility !!!!

Originally Posted by noddyaccount

Flicking through my copy of 'Parking Review' , the magazine for the parking industry , incorporating 'The Enforcers' , the magazine for the debt -collecting industry , illuminating reads both and how thoughtful to package them together, I came across adverts for pay and display machines ,incl {change giving option ] ,standard non change machines , i.e the ones I am upset about are cheaper , there fore a case of double bubble for the councils , do costs supersede a duty of care ? Is there a lawyer in the house , bring me my bow of bristling brief , in Englands Green and pleasant carpark facility !!!!

Did you also read the article on how many Councils lose money enforcing parking....a very interesting read!
Any machine can give change and many car park ones do, however it is not practical for on street machines to do so. They require a constant supply of change and it would be too costly to send someone around the entire Borough several times a day to top them up. As anyone who has worked in a shop would tell you most people are lazy and just give £ coins or notes resulting in the till constantly being short of coins. The same would happen in a P&D machine it would get filled up with large denomination coins and run out of change. There is also a security issue on street machines are designed with the money 'hopper' in the base in a strong box into which the money drops. Change machines require the money to be kept at the top of the machine which is more vunerable to theft. In car parks with attendants, change giving machines are a good idea which is why they are available but it doesn't mean they are suitable for every purpose.

budget losses or actual losses ?

Originally Posted by green_and_mean

Did you also read the article on how many Councils lose money enforcing parking....a very interesting read!
Any machine can give change and many car park ones do, however it is not practical for on street machines to do so. They require a constant supply of change and it would be too costly to send someone around the entire Borough several times a day to top them up. As anyone who has worked in a shop would tell you most people are lazy and just give £ coins or notes resulting in the till constantly being short of coins. The same would happen in a P&D machine it would get filled up with large denomination coins and run out of change. There is also a security issue on street machines are designed with the money 'hopper' in the base in a strong box into which the money drops. Change machines require the money to be kept at the top of the machine which is more vunerable to theft. In car parks with attendants, change giving machines are a good idea which is why they are available but it doesn't mean they are suitable for every purpose.

But with all due respect , So What , should shops not give us change because we are 'lazy;' and its a hassle for them to send staff to the bank to queue up to change up, which it is . My point is why should the councils profit further from us than nessercary . If they have to send someone around to empty/ top-up the machines , I am sure it would not be that costly , and would address the Security concern you raise , Oh 'security ' , why does modern life conspire to make me so insecure , by the way thank you for your input.

Originally Posted by green_and_mean

Did you also read the article on how many Councils lose money enforcing parking....a very interesting read!
Any machine can give change and many car park ones do, however it is not practical for on street machines to do so. They require a constant supply of change and it would be too costly to send someone around the entire Borough several times a day to top them up. As anyone who has worked in a shop would tell you most people are lazy and just give £ coins or notes resulting in the till constantly being short of coins. The same would happen in a P&D machine it would get filled up with large denomination coins and run out of change. There is also a security issue on street machines are designed with the money 'hopper' in the base in a strong box into which the money drops. Change machines require the money to be kept at the top of the machine which is more vunerable to theft. In car parks with attendants, change giving machines are a good idea which is why they are available but it doesn't mean they are suitable for every purpose.

And ,but , also , The machines in R.B.K.C , with which I have no problem , give you exact time for our money , e.g if 1hr =60p , if you put in 70p you get 1 hour and 10 minutes etc etc , Fair enough . If you put in coins after 6.30 pm , the cut-off time say it gives you a ticket for the next day , can be annoying but its little machine heart is in the right place , that s an example of a fair machine , I cannot recall if it gives change will let you know .
My point is again why do not all councils use a similar machine /system ,I think its even solar powered . No security concerns there or would they not be just the same as other change giving machines as they fill up with coins .
I remember recently when Westminster got rid of all their old-fashioned parking meters because people were topping them like dandelions , the council leapt at the chance to install phone text machines , very handy if you don't have a mobile phone , or charge on one , or credit or if you are an older person , I wonder if that was more cost effective for the council , those thieves might have done them a favour .
As J.los accountant said , its all about the bottom line .

Originally Posted by noddyaccount

But with all due respect , So What , should shops not give us change because we are 'lazy;' and its a hassle for them to send staff to the bank to queue up to change up, which it is . My point is why should the councils profit further from us than nessercary . If they have to send someone around to empty/ top-up the machines , I am sure it would not be that costly , and would address the Security concern you raise , Oh 'security ' , why does modern life conspire to make me so insecure , by the way thank you for your input.

I never said shops should not give us change I simply pointed out that anyone with experience of working in a shop would know that most people cannot be bothered to give the exact money. My local authority has over 80 on street machines which need regular maintainence for faults and adding extra ticket rolls. If you then want all 80 machines to be visited several times a day to top up with change, which would require a 2 seperate persons and a secure vehicle, since a Council vehicle is not equiped to carry cash and it would not be safe to work alone then the parking charges would have to be increased to reflect that. The current contractor who empties the machines charges £4 per machine per visit. If they had to visit the machines 3 times a day 6 days a week thats an extra £5,500 per week. Councils have a duty to provide the most cost effective service, pandering to the needs of those that cannot be bothered to carry change at a cost of 3 million quid a year is never going to get past any Council comittee.

It's not beyond the wit of man to make a parking machine that sells time by small divisions. Why should you have to choose between 90p for 1 hour and £1.50 for 2 hours? A quick trip to the local shops suddenly becomes very expensive when these machines get installed.

At bored moments when I used to work for a traffic research organisation, I would flick through the mags and see these machines being sold with the specific benefit being listed that the owners would benefit from unused parking time.

And then they have the cheek to say tickets are non-transferrable!

Originally Posted by noddyaccount

Surely financial integrity is more valuable than profit , even if your estimate was correct , and I would like that job of emptying the machines with my cousin for 3 million pounds a year minus petrol ,insurance and body armour , I would work 24 hours a day ! The councils turning over 20 million pounds a year would still be making a huge profit , and playing fair with their end users , thats us so i am told would be the Right thing to do . Thats right as opposed to wrong , the thing you do and make weasly excuses for if you are not right or correct or proper , it's a moral thing . By pandering do you mean serving rather than exploiting , I had this arguement with my local councillor , who said "I don't have to listen to you " , I pointed out he did not have to agree with me , but he did have to hear me , as that is what he was paid for .

Councillors do not get paid, they just get an allowance for expenses! And I would be pleased to see the long list of Councils you claim turn over £20 a year in parking revenue.