Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.
The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights
a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.
Now i'm no expert but haven't they just sent me a copy of the T&C and not a true signed copy of the Credit Agreement despite what the cover letter says?
The date on the letter is one day before the 12+2 deadline so they had plenty of time to dig out a copy.
Has someone in the office just omitted to include a copy of the agreement, or is this standard Egg practice to send just the T&Cs when they can't find the agreement?
What is the best course of action in this situation? Should i write to them highlighting their error and again requesting a copy of a signed true agreement (as i did in the first place) or should i just place the account in dispute due to their failure to meet their statutory obligations?
Write back...the letter states they have sent you a copy of your signed agreement, but it is just T and Cs. I did get a copy of my agreement with Egg.
Is it a loan or a credit card? When did you take it out?
They could be stalling you with this tactic/could be an error, either way its not a true signed copy of your CCA, although, as you might see from looking around on here, you are not the first person to just receive T and Cs!
Egg PPI *WON* £5000 refunded off outstanding loan
Hackney Council Parking Ticket *WON*
Mint.....*WON* £600 Charges Off Credit Card
Lloyds...*WON* £500 Charges off Credit Card
Bcard Visa......CCA Disputed; On Hold
Bcard/Morgan Stanley...CCA Disputed; On Hold
Lloyds Current.....On hold
... as you might see from looking around on here, you are not the first person to just receive T and Cs!
I've been having a read but i can't seem to find any examples. What was the outcome when only T&Cs were sent, was it just an error and did they send and agreement after a second request, or were they unable to supply one?
Many credit card companies are sending out T and Cs to try and put you off pursuing the CCA, usually because they either do not have it, know it is unforceable or improperly executed (there is a distinct difference), or simply cannot be bothered to look for it and think you will go away. In my case with Barclaycard, on one account they have sent different versions of the T and Cs four times and no agreement, and on another they have sent an agreement with references to conditions that do not exist. Both of these took four months to receive.
With Egg, I got a quick response with an enforceable loan agreement from 2004, but I would say it would be unlikely that they would have something enforceable for an account from 2002. It is up to you how you proceed; you can keep writing to them pressing for the agreement and stop paying them if you want, but they will default you and hound you via phone/DCAs. My experience with Egg is that they are quick to default. There is an alternate strategy for obtaining your agreement:
Best to first go down the CCA request route, and claim back any charges that are on the account via a Subject access request. The CPR 31.16 disclosure request is a last resort, but one that will possibly obtain your actual agreement and not a constructed copy. I am using it as Barclaycard has sent me a CCA which fulfils some regulations but is poor quality and missing terms and conditions; without seeing the original I will not know if it adheres to regulations.
Definitely write and remind Egg that they are default of your request if 12+2 days are up, and that T and Cs are not a CCA; what they do after that will just depend on circumstance...they may try and hide between a 1983 documents act (not sure the specifics if someone else can help here please) and say they have fulfilled your request anyway, but still send it.
Have you stopped paying?
Egg PPI *WON* £5000 refunded off outstanding loan
Hackney Council Parking Ticket *WON*
Mint.....*WON* £600 Charges Off Credit Card
Lloyds...*WON* £500 Charges off Credit Card
Bcard Visa......CCA Disputed; On Hold
Bcard/Morgan Stanley...CCA Disputed; On Hold
Lloyds Current.....On hold
Well, i wrote to them pointing out that they had only sent me T&Cs after 12+2 days, not a signed agreement and that they were in direct breach of CCA 74 Section 78(1). I asked them to send me a signed agreement within 14 days.
This morning i recieved a standard ' We've recieved your complaint' letter, but still no agreement...
They're saying they will resolve it within 8 weeks but i think i will be putting the account into dispute if they haven't come up with anything after 14 days. 8 Weeks may be 'inline with regulations set out by the Financial Services Authority' but they have been in default ever since they failed to supply a signed true copy of the agreement after 12+2 working days as far as i'm concerned
Hmmmm, this seems to be a new delaying tactic from Egg possibly, unless some dumbo forgot to put the actual copy agreement in the envelope and they really do think they sent it. Wouldn't surprise me.
Hmmmm, this seems to be a new delaying tactic from Egg possibly, unless some dumbo forgot to put the actual copy agreement in the envelope and they really do think they sent it. Wouldn't surprise me.
Yeah, wouldn't surprise me either. I'm going to send them a final reminder and enclose a copy of their original response, which clearly does not contain an agreement, and give them the remainder of the 14 days.
Then yes, it's a Subject access request. Which was my original intention anyway, i want a clear understanding of exactly what i have spent, what i have paid back and what i have been charged in interest and charges.
Without a credit agreement am i right in saying they have no basis on which to charge me interest?
Yeah, wouldn't surprise me either. I'm going to send them a final reminder and enclose a copy of their original response, which clearly does not contain an agreement, and give them the remainder of the 14 days.
Do you not have your own copy of the agreement from when you took it out?
When approximately did you take out the Egg Card (it is a credit card isn't it?)
Most (all?) card 'agreements' from between 1999 and 2004/5 are the ones worded 'approved' instead of 'credit' limit.
Hey you added a bit whilst I was replying
Erm....Not only should they not add interest or charges, they shouldn't expect any payment either !
Whilst it is in dispute (I hope you have told them you are disputing the validity of the agreement) the account is effectively frozen.
Don't expect Egg to think like that though. In their blinkered opinion everything is as it was except you are in default (assuming you don't pay your monthly repayments).
Do you not have your own copy of the agreement from when you took it out?
When approximately did you take out the Egg Card (it is a credit card isn't it?)
Most (all?) card 'agreements' from between 1999 and 2004/5 are the ones worded 'approved' instead of 'credit' limit.
Hey you added a bit whilst I was replying
Erm....Not only should they not add interest or charges, they shouldn't expect any payment either !
Whilst it is in dispute (I hope you have told them you are disputing the validity of the agreement) the account is effectively frozen.
Don't expect Egg to think like that though. In their blinkered opinion everything is as it was except you are in default (assuming you don't pay your monthly repayments).
It'll be a bitch to get the defaults removed
Basa,
Credit card taken out 1999/2000, i think. No, i don't have my own copy of the agreement, been hunting high and low for it, but i do remember that it used the 'Approved Limit' term, that's why i gave them a poke for it. I was expecting to have to argue the toss with them over that and was a little surprised when only T&Cs turned up in the post.
I've not put the account into dispute yet, as i wanted to make sure that they didn't just forget to include a copy of the agreement with the initial response before doing that, but it's the next step. I did send them another letter pointing out their breach of CCA 1974 s78(1) and included a copy of their initial response (with just the T&Cs) to avoid any ambiguity, which they received a week ago and have ignored so far. The initial s78 request was sent 11th of Feb, so they have been in default of my request since the 3rd march i my view despite their insistence to the contrary
I am concerned about being defaulted tho if i should cancel the direct debit. Are they likely to keep taking money off me if i put the account into dispute but don't cancel the dd? (or is that a stupid question )
I think they're ignoring me now, had no response to my letter which included their initial response (just T & Cs), and no response to my 'Account in Dispute' letter which they recieved on friday, not even a 'We're Dealing With Your Complaint' letter.
If i cancel the DD and they try to default me can i approach a Lawyer to obtain a court interdict to prevent them from doing so? Just a thought...
I think they're ignoring me now, had no response to my letter which included their initial response (just T & Cs), and no response to my 'Account in Dispute' letter which they recieved on friday, not even a 'We're Dealing With Your Complaint' letter.
If i cancel the DD and they try to default me can i approach a Lawyer to obtain a court interdict to prevent them from doing so? Just a thought...
Strange that Egg would act like that. They sent me my agreement before the 12 day deadline.
You should write something along the lines that the T&Cs they've sent do not constitute a valid agreememnt or indeed an agreement at all and that you are not obliged to make payments to an account you dispute, indeed to date you have no proof an agreement even exists.
You can legitimately stop your payments as the account is in dispute. But don't expect Egg to agree.
They will default you after you miss two or three payments. They will pester you with secure messages to pay up. The only way to stop them would be to instigate legal proceedings.
The court would be asked to rule on whether your agreement is enforceable. If it has the approved rather than credit limit, then popular opinion (and a fair bit of legal argument) says it is unenforceable. It is a risk, but a risk many of us are prepared to take, but I think most are waiting to see what Egg do first.
It can appear a little aggressive for you to start legal proceedings this soon. A judge just might ask why if you spent the money why are you going to court to get out of paying it back?
You should write something along the lines that the T&Cs they've sent do not constitute a valid agreement or indeed an agreement at all and that you are not obliged to make payments to an account you dispute, indeed to date you have no proof an agreement even exists.
I have done lol!
These are the letters they are ignoring. :-?
My 3rd letter to them which stated that they had not included an agreement just T&Cs (i included a copy of their initial response with just the T&Cs for their perusal). And my 'account in dispute' letter which states explicitly that 'T&Cs do not constitute an agreement whatsoever' and that i 'had confirmation from a trading standards officer to that effect'.
Unless someone forgot to put it in the envelope and they genuinely think they sent me an agreement and I'm trying it on.
You mentioned an interdict rather than an injunction. Does that mean you are in Scotland? If so, the procedures are different and some of the standard advice (eg the 31.16 letter) won't apply.
The "1983 documents act" refers to a set of regulations that some creditors are hiding behind. However, they usually mis-state what the relevant provision says or, at the very least, mis-interpret what it means. If they do play that card, I can give you a reply with chapter and verse to send.
You mentioned an interdict rather than an injunction. Does that mean you are in Scotland? If so, the procedures are different and some of the standard advice (eg the 31.16 letter) won't apply.
The "1983 documents act" refers to a set of regulations that some creditors are hiding behind. However, they usually mis-state what the relevant provision says or, at the very least, mis-interpret what it means. If they do play that card, I can give you a reply with chapter and verse to send.
Yes Viscount, that's correct i am in Scotland, and i'm aware that the CPR do not apply up here, proceedings are governed by the Act of Sederunt i think?
A copy of that letter would be grand, although they're still ignoring me (no response to my 3rd letter or my 'Account in Dispute' letter)
Egg CCA Request Response
early in Feb. and received the following response this morning...
Reply With Quote
Originally Posted by Mr Fox
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