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    • Hi all, We bought a part to fix our washing machine approx 13 months ago direct from the manufacturer of the washing machine via phone. This part then failed 13 months later, as confirmed by their own engineer, who was sent by the manufacturer (who is also the retailer for the part) FoC. The engineer actually installed a replacement part, the machine came back to life, but they then removed the part used for testing (and ours reinstalled) as "we would be charged for it". The retailer are refusing to replace the part, stating that they only warranty parts for 90 days. When I stated that I believed the Consumer Rights Act gives me longer than that, they insinuated that it did not, and this was repeated by many representatives. AIUI for goods bought more than 6 months ago, I need to get an engineers report to confirm the part has failed? Or that it has failed due to manufacturing issues? Or would the companies own engineers report suffice? Also, does anyone have any other decent contact details for Hotpoint (or the Whirlpool group)? Thanks, GH
    • Thank you for that "read me", It's a lot to digest, lots of legal procedure. There was one thing that I was going to mention to you,  but in one of the conversations in that thread it was mentioned that there may be spies on the Forum,  this is something that I've read quite some time ago in a previous thread. What I had in mind was to wait for the thirty days after their reply to my CCA request and then send the unenforceable letter. I was hoping that an absence of signature could be the Silver Bullet but it seems that there are lot of layers to peel on this Onion.  
    • love the extra £1000 charge for confidentialy there BF   Also OP even if they don't offer OOC it doesn't mean your claim isn't good. I had 3 against EVRi that were heard over the last 3 weeks. They sent me emails asking me to discontinue as I wouldn't win. Went infront of a judge and won all 3.    Just remember the law is on your side. The judges will be aware of this.   Where you can its important to try to point out at the hearing the specific part of the contract they breached. I found this was very helpful and the Judge made reference to it when they gave their judgements and it seemed this was pretty important as once you have identified a specific breach the matter turns straight to liability. From there its a case of pointing out the unlawfullness of their insurance and then that should be it.
    • I know dx and thanks again for yours and others help. I was 99.999% certain last payment was over six years ago if not longer.  👍
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What's the rules on making an apprentice redundant?


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Coniff

 

It can be a real minefield for the employer, depending on the quality of the drafting used when the Apprenticeship Agreement was drafted.

 

Normally, the employer will be under a duty to seek suitable employers where the apprentice could have been transfered to before making him/her redundant.

 

The bottom line is that you need to read the agreement, check what provision it made for termination, including by way of redundancy, and come back.

 

If an apprentice is wrongfully dismissed he may have a claim for enhanced damages by reason of the loss of his prospects as a tradesman on completion of his apprenticeship (Dunk v George Waller & Son Ltd [1970] 2 All ER 630, , CA). See also Wallace v CA Roofing Services Ltd , QBD. The case concerned an apprentice sheet metal worker who was dismissed for reason of redundancy after 19 months and claimed damages for breach of contract, arguing that the contract was one of apprenticeship and therefore not subject to a redundancy dismissal. This was held to be the case and the matter was remitted for damages to be assessed, presumably on the basis that the contract should have been one for four years.

Che

...................................................................... [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Please post on a thread before sending a PM. My opinion's are not expressed as agent or representative of The Consumer Action Group. Always seek professional advice from a qualified legal adviser before acting. If I have helped you please feel free to click on the black star.[/FONT] [FONT=Comic Sans MS] I am sorry that work means I don't get into the Employment Forum as often as I would like these days, but nonetheless I'll try to pop in when I can.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial Black][FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=Red]'Venceremos' :wink:[/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT]

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It says on her employment contract (not exact words, I don't have it in front of me) Apprentice for a term of 4 years.

 

See if you can get a copy, and check what provision it made for termination.

 

I have seen recently some very poorly drafted agreements that neglected to make adequate provision for termination - remembering of course that in law a redundancy is still a dismissal.

 

Ultimately the employee could find that they are entitled to a sizeable damages award because they have numerous heads of claim.

 

See:

 

In Flett v Matheson 2006 ICR 673, CA, F worked under a ‘Modern Apprenticeship agreement’, which operated as a tripartite arrangement between him, the ‘employer’ and a Government-sponsored training provider. When he was dismissed without notice, he brought a breach of contract claim before an employment tribunal. The issue was whether F was to be regarded as employed under a contract of employment, a contract of apprenticeship, or neither. This was important because, were he employed under a contract of apprenticeship, he could seek damages in excess of £ 50,000 in respect of lost earnings and the potential diminution of his future prospects. If, on the other hand, he worked under a contract of employment, his claim would be limited to one week’s pay for being dismissed without proper notice. The Court of Appeal concluded that the tripartite arrangement had the essential ingredients of an apprenticeship; namely, it secured wages for the apprentice for the duration of an apprenticeship; training enabling him or her to acquire valuable skills; and status in the labour market following successful completion of the training. The fact that part of the training was provided by a third party did not deny the contract the classic qualities of apprenticeship.

 

Che

...................................................................... [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Please post on a thread before sending a PM. My opinion's are not expressed as agent or representative of The Consumer Action Group. Always seek professional advice from a qualified legal adviser before acting. If I have helped you please feel free to click on the black star.[/FONT] [FONT=Comic Sans MS] I am sorry that work means I don't get into the Employment Forum as often as I would like these days, but nonetheless I'll try to pop in when I can.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial Black][FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=Red]'Venceremos' :wink:[/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT]

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S

See:

 

In Flett v Matheson 2006 ICR 673, CA, F worked under a ‘Modern Apprenticeship agreement’, which operated as a tripartite arrangement between him, the ‘employer’ and a Government-sponsored training provider. When he was dismissed without notice, he brought a breach of contract claim before an employment tribunal. The issue was whether F was to be regarded as employed under a contract of employment, a contract of apprenticeship, or neither. This was important because, were he employed under a contract of apprenticeship, he could seek damages in excess of £ 50,000 in respect of lost earnings and the potential diminution of his future prospects. If, on the other hand, he worked under a contract of employment, his claim would be limited to one week’s pay for being dismissed without proper notice. The Court of Appeal concluded that the tripartite arrangement had the essential ingredients of an apprenticeship; namely, it secured wages for the apprentice for the duration of an apprenticeship; training enabling him or her to acquire valuable skills; and status in the labour market following successful completion of the training. The fact that part of the training was provided by a third party did not deny the contract the classic qualities of apprenticeship.

 

Che

 

 

wish id known this back in 1997, my first job on leaving college was a modern apprenticeship that i got sacked from after 2 months service, as the muppet who took me on didnt realise that as part of my contract i was to be allowed 3 days a week leave to attend an engineering course at college, so the asshole sacked me, because he thought he was getting a teaboy/skivvy

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wish id known this back in 1997, my first job on leaving college was a modern apprenticeship that i got sacked from after 2 months service, as the muppet who took me on didnt realise that as part of my contract i was to be allowed 3 days a week leave to attend an engineering course at college, so the asshole sacked me, because he thought he was getting a teaboy/skivvy

 

It's all easy with hindsight mate!

 

Oh well, no point crying over spilt milk .... and all that.

 

Still a bummer though

 

Che

...................................................................... [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Please post on a thread before sending a PM. My opinion's are not expressed as agent or representative of The Consumer Action Group. Always seek professional advice from a qualified legal adviser before acting. If I have helped you please feel free to click on the black star.[/FONT] [FONT=Comic Sans MS] I am sorry that work means I don't get into the Employment Forum as often as I would like these days, but nonetheless I'll try to pop in when I can.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial Black][FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=Red]'Venceremos' :wink:[/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT]

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I've done some reading starting with the Flett v Matheson which lead onto other things and can quote a bit from the regulations as read by an employment specialist company:

 

If the employer terminates the agreement early, thereby depriving the apprentice of the training, the apprentice is entitled to claim damages for wrongful dismissal under the contract for the remainder of the fixed-term apprenticeship and also damages for future loss of earnings and prospect as a qualified person.

This is still the case even if the apprentice is a poor performer or is having difficulty passing any necessary exams or if he has a conduct problem such as poor timekeeping or poor attendance record.

Even a genuine redundancy situation such as a downturn in work, would not entitle the employer to dismiss the apprentice early, regardless of length of service.

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  • 2 weeks later...

What if the employer is arguing that you aren't actually an apprentice because you never signed a deed of apprenticeship/indenture.

 

I have been treated as an apprentice, attending apprentice's dinner with the management and being put forward for apprentice of the year (and coming in the top ten for the area!) and also the training provider I take wednesday mornings off to study with has documents signed by my supervisor which class me as an apprentice!

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