RBS - Enforceable CCA?

**STBINNZ** · 18th February 2009 22:12

Please could someone help with this request ?

I requested my CCA with RBS icon

as they wouldn't accept a payment plan due to financial difficulties.

They responded - albiet very much outside the 14 days.. more like 2 months!!

I have posted the letter and other parts sent to me. They have sent the t&c's at the time of opening as the charges are not current, however they are 6 pages long, so I didn't want to scan each one.. Just the 1st page. I've purposfully left the first 4 digits of the card showing on the forms and as you can see the last page, the first four digits are different to the ones on the later docs. This is the original card number, not the one to present (destroyed).

Does this constitute a valid CCA as they have enclosed a credit agreement, albeit not signed.

Please advise I want to get a letter out to them tomorrow.

Thank you in advance for the kind help you offer me!

**clemma** · 20th February 2009 04:22

I do not see your signature icon

anywhere on the documents. Your signature must appear within 4 corners of the prescribed terms. As it is, I would say this is unenforceable. Send the following letter if you wish:

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.
On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.(12+2 days after you sent the CCA request)
The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

Furthermore;

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation. This limit has expired

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested. Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS. Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed Breakdown icon

of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends. Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.
The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
* You may not add further interest icon

or any charges to the account.
* You may not pass the account to a third party.
* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit. You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint. I therefore request a copy of your official complaints procedure which you are obliged to supply.
I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.
I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

Yours faithfully,

Also, as you have pointed out, this agreement is a fairly new one as it shows £12 charges.......clearly not the original.

Gordons Barking · 20th February 2009 04:31

Yep, concur

**STBINNZ** · 20th February 2009 11:12

Thank you - will get the letter out today. I thought as much, but I'm sure they'll treat it with the same contempt Tesco's are treating it - and insist they have complied.....

Thank you both for taking the time to reply.

**davey77** · 25th February 2009 00:09

Had the same thing (as well as an application form). Non compliant to the CCA1974 as previously stated by others.

**STBINNZ** · 25th February 2009 09:35

Not to further confuse matters, but i'm expecting them to respond with the same letter I got from Tesco's as they were the same company at the time - not sure if they are now....

However Tesco's are saying that ..."the provision of a true copy in this form is made in reliance of Regulations 3(2) and 7(1)(b) of the Consumer Credit (cancellations notices and copies of documents) Regulations 1983. Particularly 3(2) which permits the copy agreement not to show signatures or personal details that may have appeared on the application part of the document. There is no statutory requirement under the Act for us to ever give a copy to a customer with a signature icon

on it.... "

Surly that it is just madness. The CCA was made under section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, not the Consumer Credit Regulations 1983, so to me the CCA is the one they need to take note of which various sections, including one in the latter part of s.78 as well as s.61 state a signature is required by or on behalf of the creditor as well as the debtor.... neither of which have been given..

Davey77 - I got as part of my response from Tesco's an Application form. Pity the application form doens't contain the prescribed terms!

**davey77** · 25th February 2009 11:34

The are correct about the 1983 regs. They still need a signature icon

document containing the Prescribed Terms to enforce the account in Court but they are not obliged to send you that document under a s 78 request. I know, it stinks. But there are other ways of asking for information... have a look at this thread if you haven't already:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...uldnt-use.html

**STBINNZ** · 25th February 2009 12:20

Thanks davey77 - I will be posting the 1st letter at lunch time.

I just don't know how they can say a "true" copy is just a photocopy of some ts & cs or a copy they had laying around with the words credit agreement on it.

Oh well, lets see what the Civil Procedure icon

letter brings.

**alangee** · 25th February 2009 19:01

I am not a mathematician, but the monthly/APR charges they show on your supposed CCA, do not add up. I make 1.3% per month, to add up to an APR of 16.765%. I am sure someone will let me know if I am wrong.

Alan

**STBINNZ** · 25th February 2009 20:08

I just found an apr calulator and 17.9% shows up at 1.382% per month. but i'm no expert on these figures - would this be an issue then?

**darftblerk** · 25th February 2009 20:12

Mrs A Foreskin wrote the same letter to me, with a very similar copy of what is essentially an application form, with the T&C's in a seperate document that was not connected to the first.

I've now ignored them for about 6 months after sending a letter outlining the fact that it wasn't enforceable. I've heard nothing since apart from the usual round of threatening letters from DCA icon

's (Wescot).

Lets be honest here, if they had a legally enforcable agreement, they'd send it. They wouldn't send something they'd created on the office photocopier, only to save the real thing for court. They want their money back, so it's in their interests to show all the cards early.

Insane!

Lets see if Halifax icon

spot that they don't have an enforceable CCA when I meet them in court tomorrow

**clemma** · 25th February 2009 20:14

Originally Posted by darftblerk

Mrs A Foreskin wrote the same letter to me, with a very similar copy of what is essentially an application form, with the T&C's in a seperate document that was not connected to the first.

I've now ignored them for about 6 months after sending a letter outlining the fact that it wasn't enforceable. I've heard nothing since apart from the usual round of threatening letters from DCA icon

's (Wescot).

Lets be honest here, if they had a legally enforcable agreement, they'd send it. They wouldn't send something they'd created on the office photocopier, only to save the real thing for court. They want their money back, so it's in their interests to show all the cards early.

Insane!

Lets see if Halifax icon

spot that they don't have an enforceable CCA when I meet them in court tomorrow

Good luck!! Keep us posted (I'm presuming you have your own thread).

**darftblerk** · 25th February 2009 20:18

Originally Posted by clemma

Good luck!! Keep us posted (I'm presuming you have your own thread).

No, I started a thread, but have kept most of the dealings off-list. I've heard some stories regarding the defendant being lurkers who may attempt to gleen an advantgae by poking around the forums.

I'll post back tomorrow night.

**clemma** · 25th February 2009 20:19

Originally Posted by darftblerk

No, I started a thread, but have kept most of the dealings off-list. I've heard some stories regarding the defendant being lurkers who may attempt to gleen an advantgae by poking around the forums.

I'll post back tomorrow night.

**davey77** · 25th February 2009 20:25

good luck

**STBINNZ** · 25th February 2009 20:56

good luck!

**STBINNZ** · 26th February 2009 09:19

can anyone comment on the apr issue mentioned above?

Can i use this to my advantage ?

Thanks

**alangee** · 26th February 2009 10:21

I think that is an issue, because it is over 1 per centage point out using their figures. Maybe somebody from the site team can confirm the leeway that the creditor can have when quoting these figures.

Alan

**STBINNZ** · 26th February 2009 19:25

i think, from a compliancy issue I had on a loan, its 1% above and 0.1% below are the allowed tollerancies. But I could be wrong on credit cards.

If so, i think as you point out the APR is incorrect and could render the agreement unenforceable.

Please could someone confirm this?

Thanks

**STBINNZ** · 27th February 2009 08:14

Please could someone in the know confirm this, as I could really do with getting a letter out to that effect asap.

Thanks

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