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My 15 year old nephew was travelling a short journey on Southeastern Railways and bought a return child ticket.
Arriving at the outward destination, he used the ticket to exit the station and was stopped by a ticket inspector. The TI and said he'd travelled on a child ticket and thought he was too old to do so.
MN said he was 15 and, when asked, gave his correct DoB which showed he'd be 16 later this year. The TI said he didn't believe him and asked for his address which MN gave. The TI went away for a few moments and came back saying the address seemed accurate.
He then asked to see the return ticket. MN said why, and was told he had to show it. The TI said MN had lied about his age and he had the right to see the return ticket. MN produced the return ticket.
The TI took it and said it was now confiscated as MN was 16 or over. MN said the TI could call home or mobile numbers to speak to MN's parents and confirm the DoB but the TI refused to check in this way.
He wrote out a £20 Penalty Ticket, writing MN's correct DoB on it, and sent him out of the station leaving him away from home and no means by which to return home. He was really upset by the TI's bullying and intimidating manner, and did as he was told by the adult.
However, when he got back home later and learned that he'd been treated improperly and unfairly, he was understandably very angry because he'd done absolutely nothing wrong.
Dealing with the Penalty Ticket is easy to do but I wonder what action can be taken against Southeastern or the TI. I'd like to see the TI suitably reprimanded for this and clearly SEastern must pay for alternative travel costs for MN getting home.
If they refuse to compensate properly, could damages be sought at court.
I doubt they'd be interested but I feel the police should also be involved as they ticket was taken from MN without proper reason.
All this could have been avoided if the TI had made just 1 phone call.
I would complain in the strongest terms to SE railways, stating that the THEFT of the return ticket by their TI, caused a minor to be stranded away from home and therefore put at risk.
I would add that as the TI had no just reason for confiscating the return ticket you consider this as theft, and will be taking advice regarding issuing procedings against SE railways and agains the individual TI for the aforementioned theft.
I would also report it as a theft to the police.
I would write this story to the newspapers and to your MP.
Just my opinion, I am heartily sick of these jumped up little hitlers who are handed a peaked cap and a uniform and use them to bully people.
Also you may have an action against them for breach of contract, in that they contracted to carry him both ways, and then failed to do so for no good reason. You should be able to recover the cost of the ticket. plus any additional costs incurred as a result (the costs of him getting home another way) plus issuing costs.
I absolutely agree with everything flyingdoc has said - call eveyone.
Almost exactly the same thing happened to me - many years ago, obviously My father had dropped me off at a station to buy a ticket (as I had done many times before) for a trip to family in the country. The man on the counter wouldn't give me a ticket, accused me of being over age, shouted at me, made me cry, and I had to walk back to my father's office and get him to come back with me to the station, and then of course the moron lied and said that when I had first come to the station I was wearing loads of make-up which wasn't true - my dad had just dropped me off. Obviously I got the ticket but missed my connections and arrived very late at night. The 13-year-old me is outraged. I know exactly how your nephew felt. Go for it!!
The return of the cost of ticket and alternative travel costs will be claimed without fear or doubt.
I'm interested, however, to hear if anyone thinks there is merit in pursuing a claim for compensation/damages, or something, to teach them a lesson.
I'm NOT a compensation culture vulture - just the opposite in fact.
However, this man abused his authority, made a bad judgement, failed to exercise discretion and caused considerable distress to a young lad who didn't deserve or need this.
SEastern's reply simply said they could not deal with, or comment on, the Penalty Ticket. They failed to address the fact that their TI had acted so inappropriately.
Sorry if I am being dim here - it's years since I was a commuter.
However, there must be a way to deal with a penalty ticket where money has been demanded and paid by a minor under duress.
If the TI is an employee of SE Trains, they should be dealing with it. I am so clueless here and have never understood it at all since BR went, but could he be an employee of Network Rail (or whatever)? He has to be employed by someone who is responsible for his actions.
I guess we'd pursue SouthEastern Rail as the lad paid them to travel and they clearly allowed this TI to act on their network, even if he is not their direct employee.
They will not get away with side-stepping the issue of the TI's behaviour.
I wholeheartedly agree that, if this incident has been accurately reported (and I have no reason to suspect it has not), then the member of rail staff concerned should be taken to task and a strongly worded complaint should be lodged with any appeal against the penalty within 21 days of issue of the penalty notice.
This must be sent to the address given on the notice. It doesn't stop you making any other complaint, but it is important that your appeal is recorded in due time.
There is an independent appeals service for a later complaint if you do not get a response that you are happy with. Details of IPFAS .
Independent Penalty Fare Appeals Service (IPFAS)
PO Box 14697
London
SE1 8ZJ
There is one thing I always find just a little irritating and that is when people refer to 'theft' of a ticket by rail staff. One of the conditions of issue, whether we like it or not, is that rail tickets always remain the property of the rail companies and may be withdrawn by rail staff to be submitted with any report.
It would be more appropriate to consider whether, if by his unreasonable action, the member of staff had left a vulnerable child stranded without means of getting home, there would seem to be a case for complaint against that individual, whether the rail company accept responsibility for his action or not.
I would suggest that when dealing with young children of 15 years and under, any right thinking member of rail staff should bear age & vulnerability in mind.
If it is necessary to lawfully retain any ticket in order to show evidence of a misuse or other misdemeanour, then a receipt for the ticket allowing the young person to complete their journey should be issued.
That is the advice I have always given and from long experience, I can confirm was always the standard approach of Inspectors dealing with young children in BR days.
I would not go charging in, all guns blazing, no matter how incensed one might feel when an incident like this occurs.
A firm, well worded and strong appeal against the unjustified penalty notice, coupled with a demand to be advised in writing the ultimate outcome of any subsequent disciplinary action should suffice.
Inspectors are told very clearly that when dealing with minors you must be VERY careful and follow the procedures to the LETTER.
The Penalty Fare issued must be a NIL paid Penalty Fare. I.e. he shouldnt take any cash.
DfT Penalty Fares Policy 4.32 People at risk. Authorised collectors must take special care with children and other vulnerable passengers, such as people who are elderly, frail or heavily pregnant. This is particularly important at night or on last trains. In particular, children or other people at risk must not be left without enough money to return home, for example, if they need a bus fare or money for a phone call when they reach their destination. In the case of children, if an authorised collector decides to charge a penalty fare, no payment should normally be taken on the spot. Instead, the authorised collector should tell the child to hand the penalty fare notice to his or her parents or guardian when they return home. In such cases, authorised collectors must also be given the discretion to make the penalty fare notice valid for the child to travel to their final destination. Department for Transport - Penalty Fares Policy
This is a breach of the DfT policy and could actually result in a PF scheme being withdrawn (not that it would happen).
As other members have said, I would suggest writing a complaint to the address on the Penalty Fare notice, be quick as you must do it within 21 days.
Then also write a complaint to Southeastern Railways
Customer Services
PO Box 63428
London
SE1P 5FD
Of course failing that you can then go to either London Travelwatch
or Southeasterns MD.
Charles Horton
Managing Director
Friars Bridge Court,
41-45 Blackfriars Road,
London
SE1 8PG
London TravelWatch
6 Middle Street
LONDON
EC1A 7JA
Why do people say things they have no idea about, it is not THEFT the ticket does not belong to the passenger it belongs to the railway, and at ANY time a TI can request you hand over your ticket.
What does need to be addressed is the fact that the TI took a ticket of a child, if the TI was in doubt he should of issued a NIL Payment Penalty Fare stating that the child has 21 days to prove he is under 16. This a simple process can quite painless. Also if the child was travelling further the TI should of issued a Free of charge ticket so the child could continue his journey, or at least made the Penalty fare out to the child's destination station.
Remember when you buy a ticket weather its a daily or yearly it is NOT YOUR property, it belongs to the Train Company, in the same way a credit card does not belong to you. If a TI has reason to doubt the validity of your ticket he can take it back, this is not theft as the ticket isn't yours in the first place.
;-)
Originally Posted by flyingdoc
I would complain in the strongest terms to SE railways, stating that the THEFT of the return ticket by their TI, caused a minor to be stranded away from home and therefore put at risk.
I would add that as the TI had no just reason for confiscating the return ticket you consider this as theft, and will be taking advice regarding issuing procedings against SE railways and agains the individual TI for the aforementioned theft.
I would also report it as a theft to the police.
I would write this story to the newspapers and to your MP.
Just my opinion, I am heartily sick of these jumped up little hitlers who are handed a peaked cap and a uniform and use them to bully people.
Also you may have an action against them for breach of contract, in that they contracted to carry him both ways, and then failed to do so for no good reason. You should be able to recover the cost of the ticket. plus any additional costs incurred as a result (the costs of him getting home another way) plus issuing costs.
Under 16 fined and return ticket confiscated
.
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My father had dropped me off at a station to buy a ticket (as I had done many times before) for a trip to family in the country. The man on the counter wouldn't give me a ticket, accused me of being over age, shouted at me, made me cry, and I had to walk back to my father's office and get him to come back with me to the station, and then of course the moron lied and said that when I had first come to the station I was wearing loads of make-up which wasn't true - my dad had just dropped me off. Obviously I got the ticket but missed my connections and arrived very late at night. The 13-year-old me is outraged. I know exactly how your nephew felt. Go for it!!
Originally Posted by flyingdoc
