Thread: Davey vs Amex

Start date 15 June 2004.

Credit Limit (was £5400)

A couple of late payments but no problems generally. No defaults.

Current Balance £1200

Notice of Variation received in Jan this year. So sent this letter:

Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing in response to the recently received notice of variation letter in relation to my American Express Gold Card account (as above).

Your letter states that from the 1st March 2009 the APR will increase to 18.9% (from it’s current 13.9%.)

This seems to me an overly large increase considering the Bank of England base rate currently at a low of 1.5% and given your letter’s sentence thanking me for being a ‘valued’ Customer.

I must ask how you feel this increase is justified in relation to the Base Rate and my personal use of the above Card. I am certainly, and have been, a good customer to the point of making money for American Express over a period of time and have incurred a small number of late payment charges as well as not paying off the entire balance of the card in a short space of time, therefore I would assume am considered a very good customer as opposed to someone who never uses their card or has defaulted and can no longer make any kind of payments.

Your increase, while legal, is certainly considered by me inappropriate and unethical and should you wish to cancel the intended increase in APR I should certainly like to continue being a valued and worthwhile customer for many years to come.
If, on the other hand, you do not feel so inclined and go ahead with the increase then I should inform you that i would consider this disrespectful and disproportionate and once i have cleared the balance remaining I will be contacting American Express with the view to closing my account permanently and moving my business elsewhere.

I hope this action will not become needed though and you can reconsider you planned increase in light of my letter.

Yours sincerely, Me

Reply received today:



Now i can understand (up to a point) a creditor reducing the credit limit upon reviewing an account holder's credit file but i object to the disrespectful 'reply' and lack of courtesy by their response to my letter. As well as the fact that they reduced the limit to within inches of the current balance (hoping i will struggle and thereby lumping on charges no doubt.)

So.. CCA1974 (s77-79) request printed off and ready to be posted tomorrow by recorded delivery. Lets see what they have....

Originally Posted by davey77

So.. CCA1974 (s77-79) request printed off and ready to be posted tomorrow by recorded delivery. Lets see what they have....

Good luck.. mine was for post 2006 so they had the agreement and have given me a copy of a single page plus a bulk load of T&C in reply to the CCA......... they havent sent the actual t&C I had with the card mind as I might have that in my email system

I'm hoping they'll agree to my reduced payments but looking at how they've treated you and others I'm not holding out much hope to be honest

Originally Posted by pmw1971

Good luck.. mine was for post 2006 so they had the agreement and have given me a copy of a single page plus a bulk load of T&C in reply to the CCA......... they havent sent the actual t&C I had with the card mind as I might have that in my email system

I'm hoping they'll agree to my reduced payments but looking at how they've treated you and others I'm not holding out much hope to be honest

Good luck to you too. Does seem after reading around that Amex consider themselves above the Law as much as all the other creditors out there put together.

Hey,

I would say it is a direct response to my letter as i have not received anything else from them. I would have thought that too.. that a customer that incurs charges is what Amex want but..

..if it is the case that they are aware that many of their agreements do not conform to the regulations and potentially could be unenforceable (therefore could eventually be written off if the debtor pushes hard enough) then their response to any debtor (that looks like they are going to be trouble) would be to reduce the credit limit. And thereby limit possibly greater losses later on.

It seems an obvious conclusion to make based on their reaction to a straight forward letter. (Davey77 is going to be trouble in other words.)

CCA request received by Amex today.. clock is ticking......

Let them ask for the card back now!

HAHAHAHAHA I dont know if that'll get removed but it really was priceless....

Well done Davey thats given me a chuckle over dinnertime

Quality....we should make a huge credit card bonfire and film it

Originally Posted by Talbot

Quality....we should make a huge credit card bonfire and film it

I have two nice platinum colored cards to add (they've sent me a nice brand spanking new even though I've told them im in financial difficulty.. nothing like responsible lending)

Just be down wind when you start burning.. as expected, Credit Cards give off quite a nefarious odor upon ignition. Not surprising considering they are highly 'toxic' in nature to the many people that come into contact with them.

Originally Posted by davey77

Let them ask for the card back now!

LOL - Probably a good move considering the the recent case with MBNA.

It was after reading that thread that i burnt it.

I am very surprised to say that today i received a response to my CCA request. That must be an all time record and has never happened to me before.

Unfortunately all they have managed to supply is a single A4 Application form along with a couple of updated agreements that are unsigned.
(Even those are not printed very well. The images shown are a good representation of what they look like.) I won't post all of those up as it's the signature page which is the important one.

Now what to reply? hmmm Demands, the Law etc OR i might try a very simplistic reply to lull them into thinking i don't know what i am talking about. Thereby getting them to 'open up' a bit. Worth a try.

Oh i love this part: "Please see the statements we have sent you previously to validate the debt held."

Sounds more like a plea for mercy to me

Originally Posted by davey77

I am very surprised to say that today i received a response to my CCA request. That must be an all time record and has never happened to me before.

Unfortunately all they have managed to supply is a single A4 Application form along with a couple of updated agreements that are unsigned.
(Even those are not printed very well. The images shown are a good representation of what they look like.) I won't post all of those up as it's the signature page which is the important one.

Now what to reply? hmmm Demands, the Law etc OR i might try a very simplistic reply to lull them into thinking i don't know what i am talking about. Thereby getting them to 'open up' a bit. Worth a try.

Oh i love this part: "Please see the statements we have sent you previously to validate the debt held."

Sounds more like a plea for mercy to me

Think the begging bit is on their standard template, I got it in reply to my CCA request and I cut out the "I do not acknowledge any debt" in my request.

As to the "agreement" or should I say application why is it stamped signed by them in 2006, is that when they realised their cock up re: not signing documents?

Thanks for the input. I hadn't noticed that! Yes you're right. It does look like 2006. How very odd of them?! Probably were, like most creditors, really lazy and decided to go through them a couple of years later stamping them hoping that would make up for the lack of Prescribed Terms lol

I tried really hard to write something simply but i just couldn't Lets see what they think of this instead:


"Dear Madam,

Thank you for your prompt reply to my statutory request for information.

I note that in reply to that request you sent the following:

* 1. A signed Application form

* 2. Updated copy agreements (unsigned)

* 3. terms and conditions

With these documents in mind perhaps you could clarify matters. Documents 2 & 3 (although slightly poor quality) obviously do not contain any signatures.

Document number 1, which is of a higher quality copy, appears to be a pre-contractual Application form. This form is dated May 2004 yet the signature stamp of the Lender seems to indicate a failed attempt to execute the document was not taken until 10 July 2006. Perhaps you could explain the 2 year delay?

This aside, even if the signature stamp had been placed upon the document in question at or around the time of inception this would not create a Legally compliant document as there are no Prescribed Terms in evidence on the Application form itself.

For your information, and per your previous suggestion that statements are all that is required to “validate the debt held”, i refer you to the following:

s61 CCA - Signing of agreement:
(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—
(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and
(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

(page 1/3)

(c) the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

Also:

s127(3) CCA:
(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

I am aware that under Section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (**CCA1974**) you are permitted to omit signatures and other details from copy documents in reply to a request under the same act.
But i am sure you will agree as a law abiding organisation that what you have supplied to date, does not conform to the regulations and therefore as a Pre-April 2007 agreement, is Irredeemably Unenforceable as you have failed to supply a document signed myself that contains the prescribed terms as per section 61(a) and section 127(3) of the CCA 1974.

In this instance i would like to take the opportunity to refer you to the following in the case of Wilson v Hurstanger (2007) EWCA Civ 299:

"...Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties (with the benefit of legal advice if necessary) and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under section 61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127 (3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself:
they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them."

In relation to the above, the document you have supplied, fails in respect of Schedule 6 of the Consumer Credit (agreement) Regulations 1983. The signed document does not include (embodied within that document) terms stating the rate of interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement. There are also no terms stating how a debtor is to discharge their obligation under the amount of repayments, the frequency and the timing of repayments, the dates of repayments neither does the document headed “60 second application form” give information as to the power available to the creditor to vary what is payable.

I hope this new information has been of some assistance and you will be able to confirm the issues i have raised are pertinent in this case.

(page 2/3)

Please also note that i am aware that the permission to process data with the Credit Reference Agencies is included within a properly executed agreement and as you have not supplied that agreement you are precluded from processing said data.

Therefore, in line with the principles of the Pre Action Protocols, please supply me by return a copy of a signed original credit agreement containing the Prescribed Terms. If that is not possible, then please state how you intend to resolve this situation amicably. If you feel you can not reach an accommodation to suit both parties in these circumstances then please reply giving your reasons and i will pass the matter to my Solicitor who is currently dealing with other cases of a similar nature.

Please do not reply that you:

A: Have complied with Section 78 of the CC1974 (I am aware you may have done so and this is quite clearly not what these issues are in relation to.)

B. That payments made toward the above account are all that is required to enforce this account in a Court of Law.

C. That the Application form IS the agreement, as i have clearly shown through quotes from the relevant regulations and case Law that this is not so.

D. That the Prescribed Terms can be found on another document other than a signature document. (As I have already shown, this is not permitted to be the case.)


In your reply please include a Breakdown of all interest and charges incurred and payments made towards the above card for the lifetime of the account since inception date.

I look forward to your response.

Yours faithfully"

Does any have a definitive answer as to how Amex eligible spend cashback is worked out. I find the whole thing quite confusing.

One month is has x amount, then xx, then later 0, then xxx?!

The last statement says "Moneyback is calculated and credited annually at your Account Anniversary using your Total Eligible Spend and the rates in the table below - please see T&Cs for full details.

Total Eligible Spend £ 0-2,000 2,001+
Moneyback Rate 0.5% 1%"

don't know about the cashback but love the reply letter your sending out. Gave me a great chuckle

A reply today re my complaint about APR:


Did she say 'the number on the back of my card'? Whoops lol

Also, they are looking into my complaint letter:



Out of interest here is their complaint procedure page (which actually doesn't say that much really.)

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...MEX_0002-1.jpg