Thread: Halifax Credit card CCA

Hi All

I have requested a copy of my Halifax CCA. However, just in case I have they have not lost it I found a copy !!!(copy below)

I will follow the procedures outlined in this forum with regards necessary correspondence. The CCA does not have any of the prescribed terms so to be looks unenforceable.

Has anyone gone to court with a similar Halifax CCA and what was the outcome?

Knowing that Halifax will know this is unenforceable how easily will they roll over here ?!!

And one last question, when you look at the various CCAs across the banks where a number may have 1 prescribed term missing and others a few or all etc...is there a degree of enforceability ie. the more prescribed terms missing the less likely it can be enforced? or is more black and white that that in your view eg 1 missing = enforceable?

Cheers

Fingers

http://i41.tinypic.com/f4l939.jpg

hiya fingers60

wow that was really lucky - id keep that well hidden from Halifax, lol

that is a pure gem i think, the one i had is not like yours but ive seen others very similar so i would recommend you look at the halifax specific threads and see if you can follow a thread that has got similar to you and they may help you further

i wish id kept copies of all mine, one of my friends i think has got something similar so if i will refer to you and see whether you can help each other

well just wait and see what you get back, post it up too without your info of course and we can see what advice is for you next to follow

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...greements.html

ive understood that all the specific prescribed terms need to be there for the type of agreement it is, i will be back to refer you to a thread by steven who explains it really well,


laters angel x im subbed to this thread by the way

hello fingers60 many thanks for your rep tick, much appreciated

i always keep going back to stevens thread when i get unsure and then i think - i am NOT going mad, lol,,,, but hey all this is a self learning site and you have to understand what your own questions are and then try and find the answers around the site and from peoples comments that kind of make the solution more understandable to you

ive learnt so much legal stuff and to think back a year ago i was begging these creditors on the phone to let me pay over a few months the arrears and the threats of charging orders etc, still send a shiver down my back, i faced losing my home and im back on the right road since xmas with arrears paid partly and rest put back on the mortgage and now paying ontime the monthly mortgage amount, i learnt all about my priorty debts come first the rest of the unsecured creditors can have left over from my budget after my living costs,

so please stay positive and also remember, unfortunately with lots of people who will sadly lose their jobs this year, the situation for the country as a whole we will find a lot more people in the country will be facing what we are already facing today, but for you who has found CAG, its a lot more bearable i promise

keep positive laters angel x

Thanks for your kind words and support Angel appreciated. Sounds like you have got your life back which is great and chuffed for you keep it up !

Babydoll - I cant remember if there was a reverse or not. If there was I only photocopied the front page. When Halifax respond to my cca request I will post it on here for all to see.

Cheers guys keep up the good work.

hiya fingers and all

only sharing my thoughts and passing on a little kindness that i was given in my early days

just learn as much as you can along the journey

laters angel x

Hi ya All

Following my CCA request I have today received the following 3 documents below. None of the documents contain my original signed CCA and as you know I have a copy of this in my posession on file already and we know it is unenforceable!

http://i43.tinypic.com/2cft6pv.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/ieedfr.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/24obwnt.jpg

I received exactly the same format response for my Intelligent Finance credit card which are part of Halifax Bank of Scotland group so I assume this is now their standard response across the group?

Do you think they are sending these 3 letters out when they have a copy of the CCA and know its unenforcable or just because they know they have probably lost it ?!

The 2nd 2 documents are the front pages of a CCA they have knocked up with my name and current address on..and the 2nd document is the same but for my old address which is the address when I took the card out.
It looks like they have just reprinted the T & Cs from the time I took my card out and reprinted them with my name and old address on. It does not correspond in any way to the original CCA copy I have on file.

Please can you advise me on the paragraph in bold in their covering letter.."we are not required to provide a copy of the original signed agreement under section 78 of the consumer credit act"...is this correct?

How would you suggest I proceed given they have sent me the above docs?

Do I now proceed with the formal "account in dispute" letter, which gives them another 28 days to come up with the original ?

As you know I have a copy of the actual unenforcable CCA so just curious if you think I should be playing this differently from this point onwards?

Cheers guys

Fingers

Just one question how old is the account ?

It seems all they have sent is the terms and conditions !!

Dear Sirs,

Account Number: XXX

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

I note that you have replied to the above by sending your companies current terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

To clarify, just sending the terms and conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;
As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

And more importantly

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

The regulations state:
(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-
(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;
(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.
It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

Yours faithfully

hiya fingers

it is exactly what i got too on my BOS card cca request, so am awaiting on sars info now the clock is ticking

otherwise i will then use the cpr rule as my account is fully terminated now

laters angel x

If the account is less than 6 years old then you could send them this

Dear xxxx,

Thank you for your letter dated xxxx, however I find it difficult to believe that you have mislaid such an important document as the copy of the credit agreement.

As I am sure you are aware; especially with the recent highlighted cases of 'lost' data, which seems to be a serious issue I was led to believe that you are legally obliged to keep copy agreements for a 6 year period. As I’m sure you are aware, this 6 year period starts from the closing of an account not the opening of one.


It would appear that you have failed in your obligations to comply with the various anti money laundering regulations in not keeping such documents. This, as I’m sure you are aware, is a very serious offence.

I now require the balance of this account to be returned to zero.

Please note you may also consider this letter a statutory notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies. Should you refuse to comply, you must within 14 days provide me with a detailed Breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’, you must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

Should you fail to respond within 14 days, I will expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

Furthermore, you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take any action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following would apply:

• You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
• You may not add any further interest or charges to the account.
• You may not pass the account to any third party.
• You may not register any information in respect of the account with any of the credit reference agencies.
• You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

Please be aware, the CCA 1974 is very clear that a default can only be issued for breach of a valid, regulated agreement. As there is no agreement a default cannot be lawfully issued as no valid, regulated agreement has been breached.

I would ask that you review this account and respond favourably within 14 days of the date of this letter. Failure to do so will result in me reporting this matter to The Financial Crime Branch of HM Treasury and any other authorities as I see fit.

I look forward to your reply in due course.

Yours faithfully

hi 42man

i signed my ccs with Halifax in sep 03....so it is within 6 years of age

should i fire off your first letter....to give them amother 28 days to produce the original CCA? if they fail then they are comitting an offence?

and then fire the the 2nd 6 year letter off?

does anyone know the answer to my other question below

"Please can you advise me on the paragraph in bold in their covering letter.."we are not required to provide a copy of the original signed agreement under section 78 of the consumer credit act"...is this correct?"

keep your opinions suggestions coming !!!

will start own thread