2nd hand car from dealer, my rights?

**mr rey** · 3rd February 2009 12:30

Hi all, I'm hoping someone either in the used car trade or with some legal nouse can help me.

Two weeks ago I bought a 1998 BMW 328i. When I purchased it I was assured that a new radiator had been fitted as there was an issue on the test drive which I was assured would be sorted before I bought the car. When i picked it up i was told that the radiator had been changed and a full service done.

Two days after purchase I received a “check coolant” warning and found the radiator needed filling up, one day later it happened again. It is now running out even quicker meaning I’m having top refill it every few miles!

I have had it checked independently and it appears the radiator system is leaking in several places. I was advised by my mechanic mate to take it back the work was shoddy and unacceptable.

i have checked several website to find out my rights and I think I'm covered under the sale of good act. But I know this is a grey area and as i got the feeling this dealership were a bit dodgy (not legally but run by wideboys who will try to wriggle out of anything that might cost them), I want to make sure I get this right.

The only other issue is the dealership in question is 30 miles away from my house (so would require me to top up my coolant several times getting there) and I don't really trust them again, could i use the distance to legilate getting my car fixed elsewhere and sending them the bill.

I see three options I can give them but not sure how much I could use the law to enforce them, in order of preference...

1) Get a local and trusted mechanic to replace the radiator and the dealership pays the bill.

2) The dealership sends a tow truck to my house and pick up the vehicle.

3) I drive it there, but the dealership would have to agree that should I blow a gasket getting it there (which would be due to their fault) they must face the full cost of repair...

**MARTIN3030** · 3rd February 2009 13:05

Welcome to the site.
I will move your post to Garage sevices forums.
You seem to have the right thoughts on the actions that you can take.

**Conniff** · 3rd February 2009 13:08

Definately don't take the 3rd option. You don't want them claiming contributory negligence.

The SOGA icon

is not a grey area at all, it is not open to interpretation.

You can try a phone call icon

and ask them to collect or give you permission to take it to a local garage and they pay the bill, their choice.

If you get nowhere on the phone, then you should write telling them the problem and give them 7 days to respond with solution acceptable to you, or you will reject the car and claim the full price paid.
This is your right.

**mr rey** · 3rd February 2009 14:16

Thanks Conniff,

I think the way i will proceed then is to send them an Email (I want proof of communication if needed later) with a read receipt offering that they come and pick up the vehicle or offer to pay for local repairs.

My my estimation it would cost me around £100-£120 to fix and that would be my prefeered option as i have a trusted BMW garage I would much rather use.

I forgot to add that when I picked up the car I discovered and old engine in the boot when I got home which i had to dispose of and the car had no tax (although I cannot prove it should have had as they removed the ad as soon as I said I was interested in it). The internal mirror fell off before i left the forecort and I was told it had a radio only to find out it was a dud one that wasn't connected. So I've already had to spend money I didn't think I would have to and will point this out if they get funny.

**Conniff** · 3rd February 2009 14:21

You certainly should mention all the other things especially if you are not going to claim for them.

It will be their choice whether to come and collect, or even replace it in your drive or to let you have it done locally. If they favour the later, they can insist that you get quotes and only pay for the lowest, you won't be able to insist that you use the BMW dealer.

Keep us up to speed on what happens.

Remember, the recipient doesn't have to click the read receipt to send back an acknowledgement.
If you have no joy with the email, then do it by recorded delivery letter.

**mr rey** · 3rd February 2009 14:35

Thanks again, this is the mail I have drafted, too agressive for a first mail?

_________________________ ________________

Hi,

My name is XXXXXX and two weeks ago I bought a BMW 328i, registration RXXX XXX. When I purchased it I was assured that a new radiator had been fitted as there was an issue on the test drive which I was assured would be sorted before I bought the car. Two days after purchase I received a “check coolant” warning and found it needed filling up, one day later it happened again. It is now running out even quicker meaning I’m having top refill it every few miles!

I have had it checked independently and it appears the radiator system is leaking in several places. I was advised that the fitting was unacceptable and that I should return the car to you immediately to be rectified.

I am not happy about this as this is fourth issue I have had so far. The internal mirror fell off before I got home after picking it up, there was no road tax on the vehicle which I expected from the advert and which was an additional cost I wasn’t expecting. I was told there was a radio system which was untrue and had to replace the unit at personal expense but worst of all was after I picked the vehicle up I got home to discover an old oily engine in the boot!!! Again, I had to take time and expense disposing of it and am now left trying to find a replacement boot lining as that one is ruined!

The radiator issue however is one that I am not prepared to overlook as it urgently needs fixing so that the car is operational and was a condition of the sale. Therefore I am kindly offering two solutions for your consideration

1) A pick-up truck is arranged and paid for by yourselves to pick up the car from Oxford (about 30 miles), returned to yourselves for the radiator to be replaced and checked and then the car to be returned to myself.

2) I get the car fixed locally and send you the invoices for payment for the new radiator and fitting.

I cannot reasonably return the car to you myself in its present state as it is only drivable for about 3 miles before the radiator is empty, meaning that I would severely risk blowing a gasket getting it to you.

Thank you for taking the time to read this mail and I hope we can come to a quick, convenient solution. I remind you that the sale was covered under the Sales of Good Act which states that I am legally entitled to return the car and refuse the sale completely. I do not want to do that for such a small issue so I therefore hope we can agree on something more suitable.

**mr rey** · 3rd February 2009 14:44

Originally Posted by Conniff

If they favour the later, they can insist that you get quotes and only pay for the lowest, you won't be able to insist that you use the BMW dealer.

That's fair enough. The mechanic I'm looking at are a former BMW specialist and now private so they probably are the cheapest (£48 fitting I have been quoted) and I can get the part through discount from a relative who works for a car parts specialist so i don't see that being a problem.

Besides it's in my interest icon

to do it a cheap as possible as if I can convince them that it would be cheaper and less hassle for them if I were to sort it out, then I get my preferred choice.

**Conniff** · 3rd February 2009 14:52

Change that last paragraph to the following, don't be too nice, you aren't asking them a favour.

"I shouldn't need to remind you that the sale is covered under the Sales of Good Act 1979 (amended) which states that I am legally entitled to reject the car and be issued with a full refund. I do not want to do that, but will exercise my right unless we can come to an agreement that is satisfactory to me."

**mr rey** · 3rd February 2009 15:09

Thank a lot Conniff I really appreacite you giving your time to advise me. I am in the process of finding out how much i can get the radiator for so I can quote them a price. i will also use your ammended paragraph.

i will keep you up to speed and let you know what happens.

**mr rey** · 3rd February 2009 17:30

mail has been sent, I await their reponse!

**Conniff** · 3rd February 2009 17:33

Ok - guard the receipt like it was a winning lottery ticket.
In a couple of days, go online to the Royal Mail site and check it has been signed for.

Lets hope their response is positive, it makes it easier if so, but you aren't finished if they refuse.

**mr rey** · 4th February 2009 17:12

thank I will, a friend has advised me that if I don't hear anything then in my next correspondance I should provide a (reasonable) deadline for them to give a decision and tell them that should this come and go I will get the repairs done myself and send them the bill as this is an urgent probelm.

Do you agree with that tact providing I can prove they received the letter and give them a reasonable amount of time to respond?

**mr rey** · 5th February 2009 10:43

Thier response has come

"hiya mate the engine was for another car so we would appreciate it if you can still get it from where you disposed of it. i am willing pay you for another radiator but someone is charging you to much to fit it. you can ring me on 07817 469308 for further details."

Are they kidding!!! I disposed of the engine at my local dump, the amount of oil that is in my car shows it was in no state to be fitted to another car and I couldn't begin to esitimate how much it has cost me in petrol (I drove around with it for over a week before I could dispose of it).

I am now worried that they will try and say that I stole the engine or that they won't pay for the radiator until i return it to them or something....

...my next move?

P.S I haven't rang yet

**Conniff** · 5th February 2009 11:27

Morning rey.

£48 is not really expensive for fitting, that's only an hours labour, and probably includes the antifreeze unless you were told this was extra, ask about that.
What you don't want is a second hand rad, that could fail again in a few months and the seller wouldn't be responsible for it unless he supplied and fitted it, and you don't want to have to go to all this trouble again, or be stuck in the middle of somewhere waiting to be recovered.

Give your local rad specialist a ring for a quote. You are not obliged to run around getting it as cheap as you can for his sake, you get it done and send him the bill, requesting a cheque within 7 days of him receiving the bill.

I don't much like the phone call icon

approach, it gives you no record of what is being said or promised by the seller if he should change his mind.
Do you know if he has email, if not, you could ring him and ask, otherwise, (I know it's slowing things down), you really should do it my letter.

I am trying to get you covered in case it all goes pear shaped and he refuses to pay and you have to use the courts, the more paperwork you have the better and the easier the claim will be.

As for the engine, you have told him you disposed of it. You can tell him it was the local council tip and is not recoverable or you had to pay someone to take it away and you don't know where it is now.
Ask what his intentions are in regards to the boot carpet, a good valeter could probably make it look good, but there again expense is involved and he should pay for cleaning or replacement.
If it really was for another vihicle, he would have missed it and phoned you and asked if you could return it.
It's not theft, it was part of what you purchased.

Looking at the above, you will see that it will be a lot easier to write than to try and argue the point on the phone.

**mr rey** · 5th February 2009 13:17

I agree with the no phone call icon

approach Coniff and just to let you know that both correspondances have been done by e-mail (I forgot to tell you that earlier).

So I will formulate a reply and post it when I'm done.

**mr rey** · 5th February 2009 17:06

next letter (sorry email) for you to review Conniff.....not sent yet, I'll wait to see if you think I should change it....

Hi,

Thank you for your quick response, the engine was taken to the Redbridge Recycling Centre a week ago so I doubt that will be recoverable but you could always call them to find out (08450 50 45 50). I did keep it in the car for a week and the amount of oil that had come from it makes me wonder if it was in any state to be used again anyway.

As for the price of fitting, I thought £55 for an hour’s labour was very reasonable unless you are querying the total cost. If so, I’d like to add that this is the cheapest I believe I could obtain a new radiator for as I have a friend who is an employee at Unipart who will be getting the part at discounted rate. I have checked the Internet and found the cheapest to be at least £75 for a new rad.

I have phoned a couple of other mechanics in my area and either been given a higher price or told they can’t quote until they see the car and rad’ I need fitting. The £48 quote I received (£55 after VAT) was form the mechanics below and who would be my preferred. However I recognise that you are fully entitled to see if it can be done cheaper so I would welcome any suggestions you may find in my local area (OX4).

BMW Specialist (Mark Purcell) Ltd, OX4 2TZ
Classification: Garage Services
Peterley RD icon

, Cowley, Oxford, Oxfordshire OX4 2TZ
Tel: 01865 711525

I guess one alternative would be for you to send out a mechanic to fit it at my home but I’m not sure if that would be much cheaper/worth the hassle for you.

I obviously need to get this fixed very quickly as not to damage the car (although the snow is preventing me from driving anyway) and would be looking to buy the radiator and get it fitted next week. Please advise on how you would like to proceed.

Thank you again.

**mr rey** · 6th February 2009 23:46

NOT HAPPY!! They're only offering to pay half!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Hiya Mate what we are willing to do is pay half for the cost. I can post you a cheque for £60.00 which i think is fair. Honestly we were unaware of the radiater. we did sort the air lock out as we thought that was the problem of the car overheating. I am sorry about the inconvenience this has been. Let me know so i could post a cheque out to you.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's my next move, surely I shouldn't accept this?

**Conniff** · 7th February 2009 14:57

Too many pleases, that's why he answered 'mate', he wants you to believe he is doing you a favour.

No, they can't. But you can't blame them for trying.

Email them with the three choices they have, come and collect the car, send a mechanic to your home or you pay and bill them.
You should tell them that if the third method is used and they refuse to pay it in full, you will issue a summons in the small claims court and that you still reserve the right to reject the car outright.

You must make them realise that you are not their 'mate' and have a duty under SOGA icon

to put it right.

I also agree that you should now put a time limit on it, no more than 14 days.

**mr rey** · 9th February 2009 12:13

My response, took your advise and I hope this is serious enough for them to realise I'm not their "mate"

-------------------------------------------

Dear sirs,

I feel I have to make it clear that I am not asking for a favour or concession on your part, I am requesting that your company upholds its legal obligations under the Sale Of Goods Act to put the situation right. I was told that a new radiator had been fitted when I picked up the car so I am confused by what you are now claiming you did to sort the air lock problem out. I was also told a “full service” had been carried out with the accompanying stamp and I would expect a full service to spot an issue like a leaking radiator. Regardless, whether a faulty radiator was fitted or you misdiagnosed the issue you are still liable to cover the cost of correcting the issue.

The Sale of Goods Act makes clear that any car you sell and any work you do should be of satisfactory quality, as described and reasonably reliable. I do not consider the current state of the car to meet that as it is dangerous to drive for any longer than a couple of miles.

I have instructed a friend to buy the new Radiator (cost £65) today and will seek to arrange fitting later this week (Thursday latest). Therefore I will give you three final choices to clear this matter up.

1) The car is fully refund and you arrange to pick up the vehicle (the cost of the Road Tax I had to buy will also be added).
2) You send a mechanic to my home to fit the newly purchased radiator. All work will be guaranteed by yourself and you will pay for corrective work that may need doing should there be any immediate problems.
3) I will arrange local garage to fit the new radiator, invoices for both the unit and the fitting will be sent to yourselves with the expectation that a cheque be returned in the post for the full amount.

My current plan is to follow option 3, I will arrange to book the car in by the end of play tomorrow (Tuesday 10th February) so if you prefer to take one of the other options under SOGA icon

then you must let me know as soon as possible. I must also inform you that if the third option is taken, and I am not fully reimbursed for both the radiator and the fitting, I will be forced to issue a summons to the small claims court for the amount. At this stage I will also claim for the cost of the boot carpet, autoglass bill to fix the internal mirror and the cost of the radio fitting (I was told the car had an in-car CD changer).

With the latter in mind, I would regard you paying for the radiator and fitting more than fair, let alone your legal responsibility. I look forward to your response and hope we can sort this issue out very quickly and I am suffering from the loss of a vehicle at the moment.

--------------------------------------------------------

Let us know what you think Conniff...

**Conniff** · 9th February 2009 12:42

I like that Rey, to the point but not rude. Get it off to him and them maybe he will realise that he is being offered a bargain.

From his point of view, he has a business and needs to make a profit, so buy cheap, spend as little as possible and sell, but he shouldn't lie or mislead, it will bring him down in the end.
There is opportunity in his end of the market and he would be a fool to abuse it.

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