Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.
The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights
a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.
My story is sounding the same as many I have heard on this site - I took out a £1000 loan in September 2006 which was to be repaid over 12 months with no insurances then in January 2007 I asked to take another £1000 on the same terms. I was told this wouldn't be a problem but whilst the initail loan was done over the phone this time I was told I would have to go to a branch. After sitting in the branch for 3 hours in a tiny room whilst the salesman seemingly sat at his desk drinking coffee I was presented with 3 A4 pieces of paper that he asked me to sign to verify all my details were correct - I stupidly see now did not think this was a loan agreement I thought I was signing to say my personal details were true and so signed without reading it properly.
The next thing I know he swans off again an an hour later he comes back in with a cheque for the extra £1000 in an envelope and says all the paperwork will follow - after 4 hours I was dying to get out of the cramped office he had shut me in so I just said 'it is on the same terms as the other one isn't it?' he said yes so I left thinking the paperwork would follow.
The paperwork never followed but as I was paying £200 every month I calculated this seemed about right for £2000 over 12 months. Then in January 2007 I called Welcome to find out if my last payment would be that January or February as I couldn't remember when my DD had started - to my horror I was told that infact I was to pay £200 for another 2 years - so to broow £2000 i would be repaying £7200.
It was only then that I was told I was paying £2100 for PPI, Accident, Life Insurance etc the whole works - my insurance policies cost more than the loan for Gods Sake!
I complained on numerous occasions writing letters talking to sales people that really couldn't be bothered and found a typical response when I asked how they could charge something so extortionate was 'we lend to people with adverse credit' - oh well thats ok then!
I was fobbed off and never received any responses to my complaint - I have explained on a number of occasions the reason I don't take PPI on anything is that I have an existing medical condition that excludes me from almost all these policies ever paying out. In the end I had enough I have still to this day not received a copy of my agreement, a PPI policy bookklet, details of who provides this insurance or any acknowledgement to numerous complaints.
So in October this year I called my branch and told them I had just filed a claim in small claims court for the PPI insurance money I had paid and interest - the employee I spoke to who will remain nameless (until court tomorrow) has confirmed that he sent an electronic complaint form to head office informing them I was taking them to court. Welcome Finance did not acknowledge court action (well they don't acknowledge customers letters so why anything else!) so I was given a default judgement i then warrented it and prepared to send the bailiffs in (just for the crack really) I then received a call from Welcomes 'compliance' department. They informed me they had only just found out I had taken them to court and were applying to have the judgement put aside on grounds they didn't receive the paperwork from the court - funny that I received mine though! - I told them at this point I had already warrented it to bailiffs and they were due to attend the local branch - at this point the man started to raise his voice and called me a stupid girl that didn't know what she was doing and if that bailiff tries to take their property I will be liable for the costs if welcome had their goods taken that could run in to hundreds of pounds which welcome would pursue with 'great vigour'.
I had the feeling he was B/Sing me and the people at the courts service confirmed I had already paid for the bailiff when I warrented it and I would not be liable for anything.
But welcome filled a motion to get the judgement put aside and asked for it to be without a hearing and tried to use a statement saying that they had not received notification of the court action nor were they aware of any complaint I had - thankfully I have faxed letters along with transmission receipts, emails with read receipts and letters that have been signed for to dispute this alongside a statement from their own employee saying he told them court action had been filed.
So here I go, hopefully the judge will dismiss their motion - otherwise round 2 is scheduled for March 2009. I will keep you updated!
30.01.09
I have just come back from court and they got the judgement put side on grounds that they hadn't been served the court papers initially. The judge didn't seem to belive them but said with the complexity of the case he thought it was best if we came back to court to settle the matter and then Welcome could not appeal on this.
So now I'm asking anyone out there for help on what I should do next - i have zero legal experience and have done nothing like this before so if anyone can offer me advice or help of how to battle these in court it would all be very much appreciated.
i am well versed in dealing with these muppetts
ill post the address to send every thing, and all paper work needed over the week end to get the ball rolling.
welcome will take this right up to the court gates as routine but the questions i have for them, they dont want to answer in court.
its to incrimanating.
ive had two victories over welcome this week so its looking good,
lets make your another.
like i said, ill give all the info needed over the week end
Hi Andie, joining to lend support and any help I can. I've been digging into their practices from being [problem]med myself.
Trust in postggj, has been there and won the t-shirt!
I read that you contacted Direct Group, can you give as much info about what you asked and their response?
They basically told me all they had were my basics (name, address etc), policy no and details and dealt with claims. I am trying to find out if they deal with the actual insurer at any point and pay them their money. all this will help no end with your case
Dipply75
I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat!
My conversation with Direct Group was basically - "you'll have to contact Welcome I can give you their phone number" - In the end I got through to a manager who told me they are an insurance administrator, when I asked what this means she clarified that they are basically a 'call centre' who process claims for a number of different insurers and companies - they do not hold, sell nor underate any insurance policies. I have also been told that Norwich Union 'underwrite' these policies - I have recieved written confirmation from Norwich Union today that they have no policy for me - they could tell me that I used to have a car insurance policy through Asda that was underwritten by them - but they are not currently underwriting any policies for me. I have spoken with Norwich Union as well and have been told the lady had never heard of any policies underwritten by them for Welcome Finance.....makes you wonder huh??
Welcome have now had almost 5 months since I sent my SAR and have still not responded and won't actually tell me who provides my poilicy they keep saying Direct Group and Norwich Union and so far I have proved this to the contrary - perhaps the judge will get it out of them????
I have to file an answer with the court to defence points welcome have filed - does anyone know how i do this and how much information I should put in there? Obviously I don't want to give all my arguements to welcome so they can bulls**t their way out of it.
Should i put in this answer that despite my request for a SAR welcome have not provided this? Also do I have to put information in the answer in order to be able to raise it in court???
I read your post on Animal lovers thread and you are more prepared than you think ref the PPI/Direct Group/NU. Will try to help as much as possible
Will try and get postjjg's attention for you as that is the one person that has beat them in court and helped others to do so.
When you SAR'd Welcome did you receive anything called a statement of price? It would have their apparent Breakdown of figures etc. That should prove their figures do not add up ( I will show you how).
You now have enough ammo to ask very pointed quations about your insurance.....do you have a copy of your agreement, in particular the t&c's on the back?
Dipply75
I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat!
hi thanks for the response - My SAR has been ignored so I have not got anything - and I was not given an original copy of my agreement etc all I have is the photocopy they have provided to the court which the court kindly photocopied for me so unfortunatley I do not have and T & C's - I'm at work at the minute but can upload the copies of the documents the court have if it will help anyone.
Hi andie, yes, can you post as much as poss - their defence etc.
Can you give the all figures quoted on that agreement also. The reason I asked about the T&C's is that there is a section for the PPI etc that states "we will open a policy in your name with a reputable insurer" (not word for word but will dig one out if you need that).
"Your name", and you already have it in writing that NU have no such thing. Follow that with them taking payment from you for this policy and doing what with it? They advised another Cagger they pass the money to direct group.....not according to direct group. There is also a tax payable on your policy, does Direct Group account for and pay this also, and to who?
You have paid for a policy that you can find no existence of, they refuse to provide proof of (and has anyone been paid for?)
I suggest urgent complaints to:
The Finance and Leasing Association of whom welcome are members (link below) about them breaking their entire code of practice.
Chief Executive of Norwich Union about the behaviour and advice given by Welcome on behalf of NU, as their authorised representative.
Direct Group - demanding a Breakdown of the insurance - actual cost, comission, Insurance Premium Tax incurred, who paid HMRC this tax, the amount actually paid to Insurer, when and under what details as NU cannot trace it to deal with your complaint to them.
That should get you more very useful info and just maybe put the wind up them
Hi Andie, got some interesting reading for you. Check out the Direct Group website - especially the "services" section and "premium collection". They claim to be the middle man, including taking the payments, accounting for them, dishing out to the insurer and keeping all the records for this to FSA standards...wonder why they are not replying to your SAR? Cause it will give you all the ammo you need perhaps?
I am writing to you with regard to a problem I seem to be having with both yourselves and Welcome Finance with reference to personal protection insurance, lifecare insurance and accident issurance.
I am currently pursuing court action against Welcome Finance wth reference to how these policies were sold to me and so far I have found your company obstructive in my quest to obtain further information.
Welcome Finance have provided me with your details as the contact for these policies and you are also listed on the government competition commision as administering these policies. However despite me sending a special access request with the relevant fee to try and ascertain details of these policies - this request has so far been ignored.
On January 28th I rang your organisation and spoke with XXXX XXXXXXX who I believe to be a customer services supervisor who informed me that you did not hold, sell nor underwrite any of these policies and your company is basically a call centre to deal with claims for a number of different insurers and companies. This however, seems to contrast with your website which states:-
Through our technologically advanced systems we are able to collect customers monies in a variety of different ways from standard single premium payments to payment cards to Direct Debits.
Services include:
Premium collection
Premium invoicing and reporting
Premium earnings, reserving and expenses calculations
Commissions management
Therefore I am now asking that you provide me with any information you have with regard to myself and policies sold via Welcome Finance. I am also asking you comply with my special access request otherwise I will have no further option but to complain to the information commisioner about your obstructive behaviour.
Should you need to further verify my identity please contact me on XXXXX XXXXXX
That looks great - could add to "Therefore I am now asking that you provide me with any information you have with regard to myself and policies sold via Welcome Finance, including insurer, premium paid and commission etc.
you could also include that - Welcome have advised that Direct Group can answer any questions regarding the Insurance Premium Tax levied on my premium, therefore please ensure full details of premiums and taxes paid to my insurer are included in your response to my SAR
Welcome have put this in writing to animal lover, so not to you directly but they have stated it. That way it is crystal clear what info is to be included, time being an issue here. Love to see how they reply
What is the government competition commission? Have not heard of it and am very interested!
Dipply75
I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat!
hopefully I have done this right and you can now see WF agreements and defence points that I need to counter - I have started to draft my counter and will post that shortly so any comments or additions would be gratefully recieved.
Dipply - the competition commision is basically a governmental advisorary body that looks into whether compeition in an industry is fair or if the public etc are being given a raw deal by there only being a few people that offer a product or service and if they think so they can break up companies if they think it's in the public interest - they've tried to do it to companies like Sky and Microsoft in the past. I believe in this instance they made all financial institutions declare who provided their insurance policies to make sure they were evenly distributed and not held by 1 or 2 big names.
It was from this report I got who WF claim issues theirs.
Hi Andie, I notice they are relying heavily on that statement of price - did they include a copy for you to see (as they haven't sent you one from your SAR yet loL!) - what are the figures, and do you remember signing this?
(they have sent me a copy of one and I NEVER signed it, never seen it before in my life, the signature is an extremely poor forgery)
Any answer from Direct Group at all?
Dipply75
I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat!
Yes they did send it i'm not sure why I didn't load it up - to be honest I don't remember signing it but I think the signature is mine (or at least an v.good copy)
Mainly my arguement is that 1. I was not given a copy of any documents they have now produced to the court when I intially signed I was told they would be posted for me (they weren't!!) so therefore I could not read over anything afterwards once the pressure sales tactics 'you must sign now if you want your money cos we're closing' etc
Also I don't know if you can see but all that paperwork has been completed by the salesman and all I did was sign.
2. My preexisting medical condition would invalidate any claim I made - I have even had this confirmed by Lloyds that they would not honour any claim when I had this condition prior to the insrance starting and that most if not all insurance comapnies are the same.
I have scoured their suitability document and have found no mention of anything that asks about medical conditions or basically any prior knowledge you have of anything that may invalidate an insurance policy.
Surely thats grounds enough??
I also love the part where they say 'the claimant could have cancelled after 30 days for a pro rata refund' funny as I have been told I couldn't have a refund as I was outside the 30 day cancellation policy. and then stupidly they have acknowledged in their defence that I sent them a letter in Feb 08 - they say it asked for a balance - it did but they omit to tell the court it also asked for them to call me as I believed they had mis-sold me and that if I did not recieve a refund of all payments owed I would complain the the FSA.
They have acknowledged the letter - so if I could have had a refund pro-rata why wasn't this done in Feb 08? Why am I still paying it??
Something for the judge to think about
Spoke with DG again today - seemed quite helpful at the start 'No Miss, we do not underwrite policies, yes we just administer them etc' then came the question 'Great! Can I get that in writing'........errr I'll have to speak with my manager about who is the best person top deal with this can we call you back!!
Am I a cynic to think they may be picking up the phone to a certain lender as we speak???
Even tried playing them off against WF - in the I know you're a good company it is them thats bad and I'm sorry they're lying and dragging your name through the mud....
We shall see what happens when and if they call back.
2nd email sent to Mr Hough today just asking to confirm in writing what his staff are saying etc - with a nice if Norwich Union can do it why can't you hint at the end
At last a lady at DG who is willing to help...a letter is now winging it's way to me with the details of insurance policies and stating that Direct Group administer it in as much as processing any claim but are not responsible in any way more than that. I also asked (on a recorded conversation of which I'm told I can request the transcript of should it be needed) that DG do not receive money from Welcome with regard to this....interesting where is that moeny going??
Looking now for a letter I can send to the inforamtion commisioner reporting welcome for not complying to my SAR - i'm going to war on all fronts now lmao
Andrea VS Welcome Finance PPI
etc the whole works - my insurance policies cost more than the loan for Gods Sake!
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