Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.
The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights
a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.
Dig in, guys (and gals)....this is going to be a long post, so I hope you are sitting reasonaby comfortably....
Unfortunately, I'm not - well not at the Braxton dining table that I paid for last July.
Allow me to explain.............
Myself and my partner were due to get the keys for a new property on the 21st July 2008, so were on the market for a dining table for our dining area. We went to Harveys store in Aberdeen on Sunday 13th July 2008, had a browse and a dining table set caught our eye. The set comprised of a dining table, six chairs and a sideboard, with a price of £749.00. We were soon approached by a salesman and made our enquiries regarding availablity, etc.
We were advised that we could expect the goods in two weeks, which was ideal as my partner had arranged holidays for the two weeks from the date of entry (I was only off for the first week *sigh*). This seemed reasonable so we approached the sales counter with the salesman. This is where things got interesting.....
I then received the hard sell on the extended warranties, which I succumbed to (which is unlike me!). I took the cheapest option of three years cover for £59.92, principally to cover any damage to the plate glass surface of the dining table. I was then advised of the flat-rate delivery charge of £50.00. This brought our invoice total to £858.92. The salesman then advised us that this had to be paid in full today - no finance option was offered at this stage, and when I asked about the credit options I was told that only payment in full today would be acceptable. I then made the payment in full on my debit card. The salesman quoted two weeks delivery verbally in store, yet three weeks approximate delivery was printed at the foot of our copy of the paperwork. We did not query this as it was still within the time off that we had arranged for moving. Off we went, happy in the knowledge that we had another item for the new house sorted out.
Or did we.....................
We were advised that we would receive a call from the carrier about a week before delivery to confirm dates, make sure someone was there to receive the goods, etc. When we had not heard anything from either Harveys or the carrier by the 22nd July, I decided to give them a call to get an update. It appeared that the table and sideboard were good to go, but the chairs would not be available until the middle of August and the complete order would be delivered then.
Fast forward to 31st July, another call for delivery update, another delivery date. This time it was going to be 25th August.
Fast forward again to 16th August, another callfor an update, another delivery date. Now it is going to be 29th August.
We are now at the 22nd August, so I called again for another update - The chairs have now arrived in the warehouse and the carrier should be in touch any day. If I had not heard anything from the carrier by the following Tuesday I was advised to contact the store directly and they would check it out for me.
No word from carrier so called again and spoke to another salesman. He checked the system and informed me that the goods were all ready to be despatched for delivery on the 8th September. Did I seem to be getting somewhere?? Dont count your chickens......
Arranged a day off to recive goods on the 8th September. Called Harveys again on the 4th September to confirm that the 8th was still on track, only to be advised that they could confirm that the goods were on the system and booked for a delivery..........on the 22nd September.
Now we have a problem - in my infinite wisdom, way back through the mists of time (well, January 2008), I had taken it upon myself to book a family holiday to Florida.....leaving on the 12th September and arriving back on the 28th September. I advised the salesman on the phone that this was not acceptable, as there would be no-one to receive the goods as we would be away on holiday. "But you must take the goods!", he exclaimed. "This is not our fault. You never advised us that you would be going on holiday!" Errrm, an order placed in mid July with 2-3 weeks delivery...let me see....is a holiday mid September something I should have advised them about? Goods should have been delivered well before our break. "The carrier is only in your area once per month, you must take it on the 8th!" Guess they arent selling much in our area if once a month covers all deliveries in my neck of the woods. He then went on to tell me that the next available delivery slot would be the end of October. I had no choice but to accept this.
To recap...two weeks delivery quoted verbally in-store, three weeks on the paperwork, ten weeks to 22nd September and fourteen weeks to the end of October.
Time for a visit to Trading Standards methinks!
On the advice of TS, I sent recorded delivery letters on the 9th September to both the local store and head office outlining the story so far, and inviting their comments.I also included the phrase "making time of the essence" and advising that if they could not deliver for a family birthday at our home by 18th October, that they were to consider the order cancelled. I also stated that I would expect a full refund within 21 days. Included in this letter in bold print, with heavy underlining, was the statement "I wish to reiterate that there is absolutely no point in attempting to deliver on the 22nd September."
Off we went to sunny Florida and had an absolutely brilliant two weeks.....well, maybe not absolutely. There was one small instance of my partners mobile going off in the middle of the night which we didnt get to in time (being fast asleep). The phone indicated a voicemail had been left, so, worrying that there may be something up at home, we checked the mailbox. Unbelievably, it was a message from a delivery driver advising that "he would be with us in about half an hour" !!!!!
When we returned home, we were greeted with a Failed Delivery slip from Harker's Transport - the company delivering our furniture. Jetlagged and tired, I had to muster up the will to call Harveys and find out what the current situation was. The response was that the message hadnt been passed on to the carrier.....and the goods were away back down to the carriers depot in Sunderland.
"Luckily", there was an available delivery slot for the 6th October, and at last some goodwill from Harveys! As we had just returned from holiday, neither of us could arrange a day off at such short notice. Harveys offered to take the delivery instore on the 6th and hold the goods for delivery by their own local driver on Saturday the 11th. Brilliant! No time off needed! We are making progress!
Saturday morning 11th October arrives.......and so does the delivery!
All the boxes are taken in by the two drivers, everything looks fine.......untill the last box arrives....with the sideboard in it......and with 30% of the protective packaging missing...Ooooops
Straight on to the store to explain the situation and to advise that I was intending to refuse the delivery due to the goods being damaged. "You must sign for the goods!", I was advised by the salesman. "You will not get a refund!". Advised the drivers that I was not happy with the condition of what was left of the sideboard box, and they trotted out to their vehicle and evidently called their boss. Their first words when they came back in were "You wont get a refund." Unbeknown to the salesman, nor the drivers, I had examined the gaping hole in the sideboard box. The exposed door appeared to be askew. Looking straight on at the door, the gap between the vertical part of the upright frame and the top edge of the door was about 7mm, while at the bottom it was flush. I grabbed my digital camera and took as many pics as I could. There was also damage to another of the cartons - it looked as if it had been dropped on one of it's corners. Driver then asked me to sign the paperwork. "Aren't you going to set up the furniture that I bought pre-assembled?", I asked.
"No, we just deliver the boxes.", was the reply.
Back on the phone to the store - only to be told that if Harker's delivered, they would set up the furniture, but the local delivery people wouldn't. So what was I supposed to do? "Sign for the delivery and we will send someone up to assemble the goods for you.", he advised. "When?", I asked. "I don't know", was his reply. It was at this point I decided that enough was enough and I was going to refuse the delivery. Who wants their dining area looking like a warehouse indefinitely? Whats if parts were missing from the damaged cartons? How was I to know what was supposed to be there or not?
So, begrudgingly, the drivers took all the cartons back out to their van and of they went.
The next communication I had from Harveys, was a standard letter dated 13th October apologising for the delay in delivery, and stating "we trust now that your furniture is delivered it will give you many years of good service." Well, no it wont because i dont have it!
Next thing that arrives is a certificate of insurance dated 29th October - for the goods that I dont have!
At this point I decided that I need to go down the road of raising a small claims action, so I took advice from the court advisor at my local Sherrif Court. Another letter was drafted and sent off to both the store and their head office, asking for a full refund within ten days or we were going to raise the small claims action.
The deadline came and went, so on the 3rd December, I started the action to try and get my money back.
So today I was in court for a preliminary hearing that Harveys are still defending - only to be told that I have to back to court in three months for the full case to be heard.
Anyone got any help or advice for me???? If this goes the distance, it's going to be ten months since I paid for the goods and who knows how long it will take to get the refund if I win.
I had a similar episode to yours with Harveys several years ago, funnily enough also involving a sideboard. After several missed delivery dates, the delivery company finally delivered it, leaving it in two pieces in the middle of my living room wrapped in cardboard, and insisted that I sign for it. All requests to allow me to examine it were refused and they finally left without a signature. On unwrapping it, the top section of the two piece cabinet was damaged. It took Harvey's two days to collect the damaged section, leaving the bottom half in my living room because they would only replace the damaged half.
It was then about four weeks before the new section arrived, only for them to miss two delivery dates for which I had taken time off, then to try and claim that they had tried to deliver but hadn't got a reply, when in fact I was in but they hadn't knocked the door but just put a card through because they were running late and wanted to get back to their depot quickly.
Fortunately, I spotted it within minutes of them departing and called the store and insisted they return, something that the delivery team weren't happy about when they showed up, again refusing to allow me to examine the goods. Once again they went away without a signature, and once again the goods were damaged. This time it was a scratch which would require French Polishing to remove.
At that point I had had enough and went to the store and advised the manager that I wanted not only a refund, but also reimbursement of the three days loss of work and the general inconvenience. I also insisted that the goods were to be removed at my convenience, not theirs.
I did get my refund in full after a couple of days arguing and a letter to the MD of Harveys. They refused to reimburse my loss of earnings etc, so I took them to small claims. Although saying that they would defend all the way, they failed to show up on the day of the court case and I was awarded damages to the level of three days wages and a small amount for telephone calls, letters etc.
It is worth pursuing them all the way to court.
By the way, I've never set foot in a Harvey's store since and never will.
MBNA - Agreed to refund £970 in full without conditions. Cheque received Sat 5th Aug.
Lloyds - Settled for an undisclosed sum.
All I can say is that you are a much more patient person than I am, because I would have cancelled long before that and told them to stick their furniture where the sun doesn't shine!
Anyway, you can hardly fail to win even if they were to defend, since you have rejected the goods.
Just one piece of advice, actually: whilst your post makes for a very entertaining read , I would offer a much shortened version to the sheriff, such as: goods rejected, refund not forthcoming, and then flesh it out as and when the sheriff asks. The multiple delays for example are actually irrelevant to your cause of action. Goods came, they were damaged and not conforming to contract, you rejected them there and then and so far they have failed to give you your money back.
Apologies to people who I was in the process of helping, I may be gone some time.
Just to add to that, keep all the delays etc in a separate document as a supplemental. Whilst, as bookie points out is is not central, it does highlight incompetence and shows that you have exhausted all options before resorting to court - something courts do favour. You may, if you feel cheeky, also argue that there is a breach of supply of goods and services act, as the service (delivery) was not performed within the agreed timescale. But only if your hardfaced enough....
Two and a half weeks ago I sent off a document pack to Harveys parent company containing all the documents and correspondence that I would wish to call on in court in plenty time for the two week deadline, and handed in a set to the court to lodge them there.
Turned up in court today, and was advised by the judge that I was Case 8 - and they normally get through 3 or 4 cases over the course of a day.
I was given the option of going and discussing things with the defender (hardly likely as Harveys aren't moving an inch over this one and all the discussing had been done prior to me raising the action, hence me raising the action! lol)
If that was not acceptable, we could wait in court all day on the off chance that they got through the earlier cases quicker than expected (I didnt think that this was fair for my witness to wait all day just for the time to run out). Ultimately, I went for the third option, which was to defer the hearing to a future date - unfortunately it's another three months away - 17th August.
One interesting thing that the judge said to the Asstnt Manager of the store (who was there to defend the action....oh, and who had always said to me that he was "the Manager" of the store) was that he was in no position to defend the action as he was merely an employee of the company that the action was against. As Harveys was a limited company, they would have to have to be represented by a solicitor. Hopefully, this may change the company's attitude to the case when they have to start throwing money at it...all they've had to do so far is to turn up for the pre-hearing and todays hearing. Ive had loss of earnings for non-deliveries, recorded mail costs, court costs, inconvenience, hassle, stress, oh....and no dining table, chairs or sideboard...
I didnt think everything would take this long - come the next hearing in August, Harveys will have had my £858.92 for thirteen months. Bottom line is that they delivered damaged goods, yet are in denial that the goods are damaged, even with photographic evidence and a witness.
Good luck with the case and all, will be interesting to see if Harveys try to settle out of court now!
I am happy to offer helpful advise in many consumer problems based on my retail experience. I do not represent any company, and any advise I do offer is my opinion and how I understand the law. I have no authority to create any terms for any company I do work for and will just nudge you in the right direction without breeching their trust.
Ive been trying to figure out what happens next.....
a) Harveys / Steinhoff employ a solicitor (at whatever astronomical rate they charge nowadays! lol) and turn up for the hearing in August. After having a quick Google, I've seen solicitors hourly rates quoted anywhere from £80.00 to £400.00 per hour
or
b) Harveys / Steinhoff offer to settle out of court (bearing in mind the costs involved in them hiring a solicitor)
or
c) Harveys / Steinhoff just dont show up in August and then I have to go chase the money.
or
d) Harveys / Steinhoff go bust before August and I'm out of pocket for the whole whack.
Anyone been in this kind of situation before? Stepping back and trying to look in from the outside, if I were in their shoes I'd be going for the out of court option rather than spending money that I dont have to.
I say the goods were damaged on delivery - thay say they weren't. They say I didn't examine the goods - I say I did and have photographs of the damage along with two witnesses who can confirm the damage. Although it's me that's dirtectly involved. I still can't fathom out where their counter-argument is????
Well, having re-read from the beginning, I must say I don't get it either: You rejected the goods, they were taken back, therefore you should get your money back, end of... :-? At the moment, they have the goods and your money, so I really don't see what their argument is?
Apologies to people who I was in the process of helping, I may be gone some time.
I am another one of Harvey's "happy customers". If you still have the offending damaged items, take photos and take them to court with you. Very similar story to yours - dining table top damaged, wrong colour seat covers, endless waiting, technician visit who agreed fault in manufacture, tried to get hold of managers, at one point we were told they were "all out on the road". Won the case against them, they still didn't pay up until bailiffs visited the store!
Oh dear....i'm a bit concerned about the bailiffs part! Did you add the costs of the bailiffs on to the settlement amount or did you have to absorb the costs incurred in recovering the money?
I've got photos taken on the delivery day (which both the local store and head office have copies of) but I dont have the goods - they were rejected on the delivery day and taken away by the delivery guys.
Hmm...another bailiff query come to think of it....head office is in England, but I am in Scotland. Does anyone know if I can appoint baillifs from north of the border to collect a debt in England - pretty sure it would be sheriff officers that would do the needful if the company in question was in Scotland....
Sorry only just returned, they have to pay, sorry can't remember what I did as its some years ago but think I informed the court of their non payment but you can also download a warrant of execution from MCOL. Probably won't get to that stage as I know several other people have taken them to court as well, don't stress, it may take awhile but you'll get your money - you are in a fortunate position also as when you come to replace you should find some bargains around
Good luck next Monday RP, you will win, no probs, rather surprised to hear they sent an employee to court tho', no-one turned up in our case. Rather surprising they are still in business really, I always grind my teeth when Coronation Street comes on sponsered by them!
By the way, hope they pay up quickly but if it does come to the bailiff, it really isent any hassle except for them!!
Came home yesterday to find a card from the Royal Mail advising that I had missed a Special Delivery Before 1200 letter.
Went and collected at 7am today and guess what......a letter from Harveys!!!
The jist of the letter is that "after consideration, we have decided to settle with you for sum of £1108.92"....."therefore there will be no need for court action".....and......" a cheque for the amount will be sent to you soon"...
Hmmmmm
Point 1) The amount they have quoted does not include the interest at 8% or the costs of raising the action (which are both clearly stated on the Summons)
Point 2) Surely it is up to me whether or not there is any need for court action, since I raised the action.
Point 3) A cheque will be sent soon? How long is "soon"?
Basically they have said "This is what we are giving you (even though it's not what you asked for) and we will pay it......sometime"
The letter was not an offer to settle, more of a statement of fact.
With the hearing set for Monday, time wasn't on my side, so I contacted the Court Adviser as a matter of urgency first thing this morning and went to see her at lunchtime.
A fax was then drafted and sent through to harveys :
"Thank you for agreeing to pay the principal sum, however my claim also includes interest and expenses. The interest as of 5/8/09 is 8 months at 8% which I calculate to be £60. My expenses include the £60 fee for the summons. If the expenses and interest are not agreed and have to be argued in court, I would also claim for four days taken off work to attend court.
Therefore to settle the claim I would accept £1109.92 plus £60 interest and £60 expenses. This totals £1229.92
I can appear on Monday to ask the court to postpone the hearing for two weeks for settlement if this figure is agreed"
Now....as far as I know the Court Adviser has not received a reply as of close of business today and it looks like they arent going to turn up on Monday (with a solicitor as they were instructed by the judge at the last hearing).
So they waited until the last minute to tell me what they wanted to pay me.....and it might just have backfired - I'll be in court on Monday either way - I'll let you know what the outcome is....
This sort of retail/legal crap drives me nuts. I really wish courts could fine corporate defendants, who should know better, for gross stupidity and for driving consumers to these lengths, just to enforce their consumer rights. Pityful, really pityful.
Another really good reason not to shop with these muppets. Rip you off in store, treat you like crap afterwards.
Turned up at court for 10am and I was the first case on the list for today.
Case called....up I go.....no sign of anyone from Harveys.
I then explained the flurry of activity in the latter half of last week followed by the Sheriff asking if there was any representation from Harveys....a call was put out....with no response....
Judgement in the favour of the Pursuer (ie me!) with expenses.
So thats the battle over...but I've still to win the war.
It will now take 14 days for me to be sent the judgement and then I get in touch with Harveys again regarding payment in full within 14 days. Apparently Harveys will not be advised of the judgement unless they contact the court - cant see them doing that if they didnt even turn up.
So...I have the option of informing Harveys of the judgement immediately and trying to get the payment moving quickly before I receive the papers or just sitting tight and letting the 14 days pass. Think I'll sit tight because I've been advised that they will have 14 days to appeal and I dont think it's in my interests to tip them off within the 14 day appeal period.regarding the outcome of the hearing.
Now is where it gets interesting :
For arguments sake, lets assume that I receive payment in full - apparently (because it is Small Claims) Harveys can agree that they have paid me, but can still appeal the decision to have a judgement against them. I took this to mean that they can appeal the "black mark" against their company record resulting from the judgement. The twist is that if they do this, I am sent a letter advising me that they want the judgement dismissed.....and I have to agree to the dismissal.
I doesn't take a rocket scientist to suss out what my response will be should they go down that road. My advisor took the line of "Well, you would have your money back, so what difference does it make to you?"
What difference?!??!?
If more people stood up and made sure that a judgement had repurcussions for the company concerned, eventually the companies would understand that they are taking a long term financial risk in givving the man in the street the runaround.
If Harveys had settled last year it would have cost them £400 less than it has today....what's £400 to Harveys?.....Nothing - but having a judgement against them which apparently can affect their credit rating with suppliers, etc will have more effect if everyone that gets the chance to make it hurt them takes the option of having the judgement stand.
As a footnote, I dont know if this is peculiar to the Scottish system or applies nationally.
Many, many thanks for all your posts of encouragement - I really appreciated it.
All I have to do know is get the actual money back...I feel there will be more posts in the coming weeks...lol
Harveys Court Action *Warning! Long Post*
to Florida.....leaving on the 12th September and arriving back on the 28th September. I advised the salesman on the phone that this was not acceptable, as there would be no-one to receive the goods as we would be away on holiday. "But you must take the goods!", he exclaimed. "This is not our fault. You never advised us that you would be going on holiday!" Errrm, an order placed in mid July with 2-3 weeks delivery...let me see....is a holiday mid September something I should have advised them about? Goods should have been delivered well before our break. "The carrier is only in your area once per month, you must take it on the 8th!" Guess they arent selling much in our area if once a month covers all deliveries in my neck of the woods. He then went on to tell me that the next available delivery slot would be the end of October. I had no choice but to accept this.
Reply With Quote
, I would offer a much shortened version to the sheriff, such as: goods rejected, refund not forthcoming, and then flesh it out as and when the sheriff asks. The multiple delays for example are actually irrelevant to your cause of action. Goods came, they were damaged and not conforming to contract, you rejected them there and then and so far they have failed to give you your money back.
