Thread: Reduction in pay but not hours!!!

Is this legal?

My O/H has just been told by his Boss that he is to take a large reduction in pay but not in hours?
He has worked at the same place for about 3 years.
At the meeting with his Boss and Manager my O/H told them "he was not pleased" (in some sort of words!) and that if they were to reduce his pay then they should reduce his hours as he can't do the same job for the money they want him to work for now, and he has commitments and would need to find other work to top up the deficit. They said no!!

I have read some stuff on the Employment Law Gov. web site but can't find an answer.

I told O/H to get advice from the CAB on Monday.

Should he put in writing to the Boss that he does not agree with their decision?

Help please
Night Owl

Your OH has a contract of employment which places responsibilities on both sides, not least the specific terms relating to hours of work and wages. The employer requires that he attends work for a specified period, carries out agreed tasks and is paid an agreed amount for doing so. Neither party may vary the terms of that contract without the agreement of the other. First and foremost, the employer would be breaching contract if he unilaterally reduces the wages unless your OH agrees (or continues to work for the amended wage without complaint). Have a look HERE for information regarding variation of contracts.

The second point is that as there is a wage agreed by contract, should the employer decide to enforce a reduction without the agreement of the employee, this could be seen as an unlawful deduction from your OH's wages, contrary to Section 13 of the Employment Rights Act 1996.

Your OH is perfectly entitled to refuse a change to his contract. It may be that the employer has a compelling reason for making the change (maybe the threat of closure unless costs are reduced) however unless and until he is persuaded of this, he is entitled to receive his agreed wage. Ultimately the employer can enforce a change to contract by dismissing your OH and re-engaging him on the new terms. Your OH would then have the option of accepting (unlikely for he would have done so before and not risked loss of length of service etc) or rejecting the contract then taking action for breach of contract.

Thanks for that Sidewinder.

Really it's now just as I thought. It's not legal to reduce your pay without your agreement.

Watch this space because we WILL be taking this further.

Night Owl

O/H went to CAB - they were very helpful.
grievance Step 1 letter has now been received by Boss and Manager.

Issues over how O/H is paid or not paid also added to letter.
O/H still waiting for his pay this month - also breach of contract - withholding salary.

Night Owl

Upadate and help needed please.

O/H's February pay was late again and paid cash not as his late payslip has said, since he started, BACS payment.

March pay............ still waiting for!!!!
O/H saw manager who said that he would be paid.............not happened.
O/H saw Boss..............who turned his back and walked away!!!!!!!!!!!
Witnessed by manager.
O/H has refused to go back to work this evening until he gets paid.
He Has 2 days off now so will be going to the CAB tomorrow morning for further advice.

We are fuming. How can they do this?

Night Owl

CAB shut today!! O/H will go tomorrow.
Can he legally stay off work until he is paid? everything will grind to a halt as he is the only fully trained member in what he does.

Ok, O/H saw CAB this morning and was told,

1. No he should not stay off work as a stand for not being paid, he will be docked pay!!!!
2. There is didly squat he can do about not being paid!? just wait until the company goes bust!!!! He is activley seeking another job.
3. They liked the wording for the step one grievance letter that I wrote and want to know if I would like to work for them!!!! Many thanks to CAG for advice on writting so many bank charges letters amongst others!
4. He must write ( he? that will be my job again then!) another letter asking why they have not discussed the issues in the step 1 grievance letter he sent them and outlining again that his pay is late (if he ever gets paid).

He has phoned work and told them he will be in to work tomorrow. He will also ask for his pay every shift he works until they are sick and tired of him asking.

We have comitments like mortgage and Payplan amongst others and can't survive without his pay. I have already spoken to Payplan because they wanted us to look at increasing our payments to them. They are fully aware of the situation.

What is the point of a contract if it means that an employer can walk all over you?
How can an employer withhold your pay and then expect you to continue working for didly squat?

Any further advice?
A little ruffled Night Owl.

Bumping above posts please?

O/H still not paid and still working!!!
mortgage payment due Monday.......getting scared now.

Hi Night Owl…

I have been following your posts with interest and firstly, let me say that I’m sorry to hear about this situation you and your O/H are having to deal with at the moment.

You said:

everything will grind to a halt as he is the only fully trained member in what he does.

In my experience, this is often the only true leverage one has in any employment scenario, but even when this is undoubtedly the case, it is not beyond feasibility that certain personalities in upper management fail to recognise it and also fail to factor it into their cost cutting decisions.

Especially can this be the case if somebody in upper management is not directly responsible for key staff recruitment and more pertinently…key staff retention.

It appears that your O/H has already protested these proposals both verbally and formally, and that…in accordance with CAB advice…has returned to work rather than protest the contract proposals / late wage payment by withholding his services.

As has been indicated, there is a balancing act needed here.

You must not allow your O/H returning to work to be in any way interpreted as acquiescence to the proposed wage reduction, but I’m sure the letter of grievance will have made this clear to your O/H’s employers.

O/H's February pay was late again and paid cash not as his late payslip has said, since he started, BACS payment.

March pay............ still waiting for!!!!

How can an employer withhold your pay and then expect you to continue working for didly squat?

Slight confusion here.

Is your O/H generally paid weekly or monthly?

When precisely…would he ‘normally’ be paid with respect to completed shifts?

This, I only ask to try and determine by what nature his pay is being deemed as ‘late.’

Sadly, it still occurs that some employees get ‘bumped’ for their pay, and obviously…if one is in a monthly arrangement, then one may get bumped for a month’s money.

Whenever I’ve been employed within a monthly pay arrangement, I’ve always adopted the attitude that I will only ever permit a one month default/late wage payment, because WHO of us can afford to go much longer than this without money for those important domestic payments?

No matter how big or small the company, one would expect it’s general human resources policy to be sentient to the fact that people come to work for money, and that to not pay somebody, (or to continuously mess people around with wages due) may result in an immediate exodus of staff….key…or otherwise.

We are fuming. How can they do this?

As an aside to this, and returning once again to theme of key staff retention, I can only say that ‘how they can do it’ may appear to be a mystery, but more often than not, re-recruiting key staff who may have either walked, or found another job, is all too often delegated to another person, and is therefore not the immediate concern of the person who may have been responsible for initiating the very contract amendments which made those key-staff walk in the first place.

Key staff may not be abundant and easy to recruit/train…but when a company is looking to cut it’s costs, this will not necessarily prevent some companies from trying it on with their existing key staff, especially against the backdrop of a diminishing job market in the middle of a recession.

This preamble is derived from my own personal experience.

The general wisdom I personally gleaned from this was that job security can (generally) only be derived when you are a key staff member who happens to be aligned with a healthy, profitable company, rather than a company which is (for whatever reason) being forced into some rather ruthless belt-tightening measures.

I sincerely hope this goes favourably for you, and I can well understand how unsettling and anxious this must be.

Just remember.

If this company wants to re-negotiate your O/H’s contract so that he does the same hours for less pay, it ultimately means only one thing.

The company can obviously no longer afford your O/ H and his skill-sets and it may be wiser for your O/H to take this experience as a ‘heads up’ and make vigorous investigations as to whether there are any (more fiscally healthy) companies who can afford his skill-sets.

Either way, I would not take this situation personally…but I know that is easier said than done when the mortgage needs to be paid.

Continue to battle through this, but keep your eyes open for other possibilities…and above all, other than the obvious ‘grievance’ issues which require your immediate short-term attention, advise your O/H to keep his cards close to your chest with this company from hereon in.

O/H saw Boss..............who turned his back and walked away!!!!!!!!!!!

Mmmm...!!


Well...If you walk away from somebody, then you run the risk of them walking away on you…eventually.

You have my sincere best wishes with this situation and I hope you keep inputting on this thread as and when things unfold.

I’m sorry that I have nothing more in terms of ‘legality’ to input here, but I honestly think that by formally registering your grievance, you have already started the ball rolling on this, and obviously…you should continue to apply pressure in that quarter, but also look to the future too, perhaps in a way that factors this particular company out of the 'loop' entirely.


Regards



Angel

the employement act 2002 lays down a minimum grievenace procedure tha employees must intitiate before they have the right to make atribunal claim. Your step 1 grievance letter starts that process
if your o/h employer does not foolw the minimum grievance procedure then you can commence atribunal claim. essentially if 28 days passes with out the employer following the procedue (invite employee to a meeting to discuss grievenace, following the meeting inform yoru o/h of their response, allow the right of appeal, hold an appeal meeting if requested led by a more senior manager than the original meeting) then you can commence a claim at a tribunal.
If employers fail to follo wthsi procedure any awards made against them can be increased by up to 50%

Big Big thanks to Angel45 for your kind words.
O/H is "normally" paid monthly in arrears by Credit transfer! according to his contract.
His contract is from the previous owner of the establishment in 2006 and as the new owner has not replaced it the CAB said it is still a legally binding contract of employment to date.
He has never been paid by Credit transfer since the contract was drawn up or since the present owner has taken over.

Big thanks kfdh1962
On 09/03/09 we sent a letter (recorded post) to O/H's Boss and Manager as a reminder of the step 1 grievance letter and asking why O/H has not been given the opportunity to discuss the issues raised. We highlighted that O/H had asked for his pay since 01/03/09 and the responses! that he was getting from both the Boss and the Manager.

That morning O/H was given 75% of his pay in cash and a payslip showing a pay reduction that had not been agreed on.
Boss does not believe that O/H has a contract.............he's in for shock there then because we have copied it for him!!!

Today just heard from O/H, he has still not received the rest of his pay and he is invited to a meeting with the Boss and Manager on 16/03/09 morning.
There is nobody at work who O/H would ask to accompany him so he said he would go alone.
Should he contact CAB for representative, difficult as they don't answer their phone and timing is not easy for someone working split shifts and has already had days off, or ACAS.

Will keep this updated beacuse it sounds like something that could work as a comedy sketch!! if it didn't make me want to scream and shout!!

Night Owl

its good you have the contract as you have something now to prove breach of contract..
variations to contract have to be voluntarily agreed to, which you o/h hasnt done. If an employer wishes to impose changes they have there are steps he must follow. They must have a genuine business need, they must enter meaningful consultation, 30 days individual consultation for less than 20 people, 30 days collective consultation for more than 20 people and 90 days where more than 100 people are involved. They must have attempted to gain voluntary agreement, given notice of end of employment on old terms and employment under new terms equivalent to what is provisded for in the contract for notice, and generally acted reasonably.
If not, as appears the case hear, a tribunal would likely find against them.. i would say you are holding the best hand right now

Thank you kfdh.

"They must have a genuine business need"..........yep they are probably going bust!

"they must enter meaningful consultation"...........w ell thats going well so far!!

"and generally acted reasonably" !!???!!!! yeh right.

"a tribunal would likely find against them.. i would say you are holding the best hand right now"........bring it on. I love a happy ending!

Watch this space. Feathers may fly!!!
Night Owl

Update.
Last night O/H got the rest of his pay..................only 13 days late! His pay is normally on the first day of each month!

The pay he has now received in total is the same as the previous months. This means that the threat of reducing his pay and giving him a pay slip for this month showing a reduction in his pay didn't happen.
I presume he should now receive a correct pay slip?

He is going to get it sorted, finally, hopefully!, on Monday.
It could all go horribly wrong but at least he has a contract!

Night Owl

Well it's Monday and yep you guessed it..............nothing happened!!!

Last week he was invited to the meeting that should have been today.
Copy of contract going to his unbelieving Boss today.

O/H had an interview for another job today so fingers crossed he can leave the lying, sinking ship.

Night Owl

Update.

O/H received by hand a letter from his Employer.
He was definately having a bad day when he wrote it!

Straight for the jugular from the first sentance and carries on to the end throwing accusations at O/H on HIS bad conduct and the way he manages the kitchen. Boss has been poking around the kitchen, on O/H's day off when there is a part time chef in, and finding faults.
The boss blames O/H for drop in food sales and blames O/H and will be looking at reducing his wages. He has asked for a meeting on 25/03/09 no time arranged as yet.
Any mention about O/H's Step 1 grievence letter?................NO .
Any mention of a cut in wages?................... .....................NO.
Any mention about late wages if at all?..................... .........NO.

The letter is typed, gets O/H's name wrong at the start, poor grammar. lots of glaringly obvious spelling mistakes and is thoroughly a very nasty letter.

O/H spoke to ACAS this morning, sadly he is not member, but received good advice. O/H has nobody that can go to the meeting with him unless I can go? I don't work there and understand that I would only be able to advise O/H quietly not the boss directly.
Firstly, O/H's contract can be terminated at any time if the company is making financial sacrifices to survive. O/H can contest it but it will be a long drawn out process with no guarantee of success at the end.......it will also cost money to do it and we don't have that.

So why do we sign contracts if at the end of the day an employer can pull the rug from under your feet at any time by evil methods?

If you have a contract, unless you have the money and time to challenge anything when it goes wrong your employer can do as they like!!!!

O/H has been told not to loose his temper over the next few days on all this information and just to answer how disapointed he feels only when challenged, and he has by the boss and his wife so far since receiving the letter.
O/H needs to come out of this with his dignity intact and will be moving on.

Night Owl

O/H had a meeting with his Boss, and wife, and the Manager.

He kept his cool and thanked them for holding the meeting.
He managed to keep them talking about his wages. The original huge drop in pay that O/H did not agree to was not to happen but they managed to negotiate an agreed reduction. O/H's contract is from previous employer and this current employer gave O/H a pay rise but did not change the contract so they agreed on a reduction to that stated in his contract. Success!!! it's not a drop of 10K.

We constructed a letter as a reply to the awful letter that the Boss had given him. We highlighted that we were dissapointed that there was no mention of his original grienance over his pay but wished to respond to this letter as a matter of courtesy. O/H handed this letter to Boss and manager at the meeting.
Chat about the awful letter they sent to O/H led to them bickering between themselves over various the issues and the boss owning up to "Oh I just put that in"!!!!!

Boss is going to draw up a new contract.............beli eve that when we see it when he has not issued anyone else that works there one.
Boss has agreed that O/H will have sole responibility over the ordering of food stores for the kitchen instead of 3 ordering and O/H getting the blame when things go wrong.

I'm so proud of O/H. He came out of the meeting smiling and with his dignity intact. He also kept in control and negotiated.
He went in alone with the 3 of them but came out without swearing or loosing his temper!!! though the manager had with the boss!!

What does the future hold? O/H is going through an interview process as we speak elsewhere so will be leaving when anything new is secured.

Night Owl

sounds like a good result night owl, well done to you and O/H... amd hope the interview goes well for your O/H..sounds liketheir is a lot of infighting between the "top dogs" the sooner he can get out the better..

Big thank you kfdh1962.

Yep topdogs can sort out their own issues from now on.
They did offer a sort of meeting on a regular weekly basis to discuss issues as in our letter to them O/H said that he was disapointed that there is no offical appraisal system in place.

Night Owl