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My 17 year old son was given a train ticket by his employer to go to a conference in London. They had booked and paid for this in their name not my sons. At Watford Junction he used the free phone (as there is not a staffed information point) to enquire which train he could board and was told the 3:30pm train which he got on. On route an inspector asked for his ticket and on seeing it told him it was invalid as it was a restricted ticket and only valid on the train an hour later. My son asked what he should do and was told he would have to pay for another ticket. He is too young to have a credit card and only had enough cash to get home so the inspector gave him an unpaid fare notice ticket for a full single fare of £61.50p. I have a few questions; 1) The notice says that at 17:40pm my son was unable to produce or pay for a ticket which is incorrect as he got off the train at 16:45pm so as it has been made out incorrectly is it enforceable? 2) Charter states that if a ticket is only invalid because of a restriction you will be charged only the difference in fares yet they are demanding the full price can they do this? and finally, Charter says that when you buy and get issued with a ticket you enter into a contract with the rail company but as his employer paid for it and it was issued to them not my son is he still bound by their conditions? Thanks in advance for any help and advice.
Best thing would be to write in and explain the confusion based on what you have said and get his employer to back him up. I know british rail had its problems, but it seems since they split into different operators, all common sence has gone.
The complaint should go to the address on the penalty ticket issued pointing out he was told it was ok to get that train and argue he wouldnt have got it otherwise.
Maybe the staff at watford Junction could do with some retraining on tickets and their validity, you could gently put that in After all if they dont know, surely your son making a mistake can be understood.
Hi, tomjames he was on the Watford Junction to New Street Station train.
Stardust John not sure if the staff were actually at Watford or just at a call centre on the end of the phone - I am sure if my son had spoken face to face to someone they would have looked at his ticket and told him that he could only get the later train!
Hi, just a quick update.
I have been in touch with Passenger Focus (Rail Consumer Watchdog) who are taking up my case. Their first thoughts are that the unpaid fare notice is null and void if incorrectly made out but are going to look into it - I will let you know how I get on but please keep your thoughts coming.
Hi, received a letter yesterday turning down his appeal with the Revenue Protection Support Services but today learnt that after writing a letter of complaint to Virgin they have withdrawn the notice with no further action so good news all round.
I travelled on Virgin Trains last week with an advance purchase ticket. However I mistakenly got on the wrong train (same journey, slightly earlier).
Consequently was fined £78 unpaid fair notice stating restricted ticket. Even though I think the amount is crazy, I cant argue about that part.
When calling up Revenue Protection Support Services today (after calling for nearly 2 hours!!) I finally spoke to a very rude, dispondant woman who, after taking all the details on the ticket, couldn't find it on her system. She said that the inspector hadn't submitted the ticket.
I said to her that I only had 3 days left to pay within the 10 day limit, but she didn't care.
She then asked me out of the blue for my card details. I said that I wouldn't give her my card details if she didn't have my ticket on her system, to which she replied very abruptly "thank you for calling", and hung up on me!
I tried complaining directly to Virgin trains, who didn't seem to care, and told me there was nothing they could do.
For the last 2 hours i've been trying to call back to RPSS, but cannot get through.
What should I do??
Please advise.
Thanks.
Ant
RPSS are unfortunately not the most user freindly organisation, even when inspectors ring up for name and address checks!
When you were issued the UPFN there should be a tear off strip on the bottom, SOME TOC's will allow you to pay these at ticket offices, or, unfortunately you will need to ring up RPSS and use your card, hopefully next time you will get someone more freindly next time you ring!#
I'm not goint to comment on the RPSS response, save to say that like IRCAS and other agencies, they simply process matters for the TOCs and work within the conditions laid down by ATOC and the individual TOCs ticketing conditions.
Having said that, there is no justification for rudeness and bearing in mind that calls to these organisations are recorded, if you feel that you have grounds for complaint, then you should put that in writing without delay.
Explain that your failure to pay within the stipulated time frame is wholly because of the failure of Virgin Trains and RPSS to efficiently operate their administrative systems and given the time, cost and effort that you have wasted, that the payment should be waived or at the very least, substantially reduced.
I can't open that link but it sounds from the header like the 'good samaritan' was interfering with an investigation by having a 'whip round'?
i.e. once a person is being questioned about a suspected offence (usually along the lines of 'no ticket, no means to pay = intent to avoid' as no fare would have been paid otherwise) then for an outside party to offer to pay the suspects 'fare' or attempt to do so is an offence in itself.
I know it's the 'British way' to stand up for the poor fellow being picked on by those in authority, but some of those who sympathise with deliberate fare evaders are naive in the extreme: would they prefer no-one to tackle fare evasion and the fares to go up 20, 30 or even 40% in some areas to recompense the service provider?
I did experience interference once myself in this manner, and politely told the gentleman that even if his offer to pay the suspects fare was serious (and he must have been nuts as the fare avoided was over £60!), I had no choice but to refuse it as the person involved was under caution and had already admitted he had no ticket/means to pay and had already agreed that he had boarded the service with the intent of avoiding the fare.
For someone to interfere at the point where the interview was being concluded and the suspect would be asked to sign the inspectors notes is most definitely 'interference' and there is a specific piece of legislation connected to it: 'interfering with an officer of the railway' if I remember rightly, part of the Regulation of railways act 1889.
Some railway byelaws, in common with other arcane English law, probably sounds a little nonsensical to a laymans viewpoint, but IMHO the very existence of such laws prove that 'someone ' at 'sometime in the past' has done 'something' that needed legal guidelines to be drawn.
I've experienced many "do gooders" who interfere and will never take payment from them!
Yes, it's not uncommon, in my time as a BR RPI I experienced it many times myself, but it is usually offered with the best of motives.
The 'good samaritan' doesn't necessarily have the benefit of knowledge of the full circumstances in which the traveller is being questioned nor the requirements of the legislation under which any report might be made. I think the way in which this is handled by some staff might exacerbate the difficulty.
In my experience these incidents can usually be dealt with quite easily by saying to the 'good samaritan' something along the lines of; "Thank you for your offer of assistance. I'm sorry, but I have to refuse your offer and when I've finished dealing with this matter, I'll explain to you why"
Once I'd finished with the alleged offender, I would then always take a minute or two to quietly, but politely explain to the third party why I could not accept the interference.
For my part, the most difficult one that I had to deal with was an incident where the two people concerned were actually travelling together to a meeting, but one genuinely did not know that his colleague had neither a ticket nor means to pay and did admit that he was hoping to avoid paying!.
I've lost count of the number of times I've had to advise those caught without a valid ticket (or no ticket at all) that shouting about how 'badly done by' you are in a confined carriage *might* get you some sympathy but is more likely to then lessen the chances of them being dealt with discreetly discretion-wise.
i.e. most others overhearing will want to be reassured they haven't paid 'the proper fare' just to see someone else 'let off'.
Yes, Old-Codja: excellent advice as usual, calm and collected yet firm, the only way IMHO. On that particular occasion the samaritan actually handed the person the money and the suspect then persued me through the busy train yelling about his rights and trying to engender sympathy from all & sundry. As I already had his signed statement admitting 'intent' and he'd wasted a considerable amount of my time in the process, I just tried to keep calm and refused all offers of payment. 6 weeks later he was convicted of fare evasion and fined.
IMHO someone asking other passengers to help with money deserves praise, lets be honest it is his/her business, and nothing to do with the inspectors who I argue should mind their own business.
Sorry Andrew, I respect your opinion and to be fair I am sure we all agree morally with the standpoint that the individual being picked on unfairly should be supported but in the discussion we are having the moral argument is not relevant, this is NOT someone being 'picked on' for no reason.
Someone asking for other passengers to help them with paying a fare BEFORE they have travelled off Railway premises is possibly begging but nothing more.
Someone asking AFTER having boarded a train & with the intent of travelling is, almost certainly, committing at least 2 offences (begging on the railway and travelling with intent to avoid).
If an Inspector is then questioning them in relation to said offences then of course it is HER/HIS business and S/HE is minding it!
An 'Inspector' (by which I mean in this instance any role Revenue related generally) ONLY deals with upholding the law on the railway, unlike a train manager/conductor or Guard who has many other roles to fulfil.
If an Inspector didn't bother pursuing such investigations then they wouldn't be in a job for long I can assure you!
Also IME (15 years +) many of those being asked for money don't appreciate it either and those that do offer to help are doing so just to get some peace & quiet after one of the parties involved has started raising their voices!
You have correctly identified two offences and there are at least two more Byelaw offences with which the traveller without ticket or means could be charged too.
If you do not have a valid ticket when facilities are available to you to do so you have no right to board any train.
There are occasions when excessive queuing might be taken into consideration and rail staff are obliged to take this into account, but charter aims do not alter the legal position
If an intending traveller has no ticket and no means with which to pay then they have no right to board a train.
The vast majority of travellers do not want to be asked to subsise a stranger and would rather be left alone.
As I've said before, most of those who try to get involved probably do so for the best of intentions, but actually make the matter worse.
Sorry Andrew, I respect your opinion and to be fair I am sure we all agree morally with the standpoint that the individual being picked on unfairly should be supported but in the discussion we are having the moral argument is not relevant, this is NOT someone being 'picked on' for no reason.
Someone asking for other passengers to help them with paying a fare BEFORE they have travelled off Railway premises is possibly begging but nothing more.
Someone asking AFTER having boarded a train & with the intent of travelling is, almost certainly, committing at least 2 offences (begging on the railway and travelling with intent to avoid).
If an Inspector is then questioning them in relation to said offences then of course it is HER/HIS business and S/HE is minding it!
An 'Inspector' (by which I mean in this instance any role Revenue related generally) ONLY deals with upholding the law on the railway, unlike a train manager/conductor or Guard who has many other roles to fulfil.
If an Inspector didn't bother pursuing such investigations then they wouldn't be in a job for long I can assure you!
Also IME (15 years +) many of those being asked for money don't appreciate it either and those that do offer to help are doing so just to get some peace & quiet after one of the parties involved has started raising their voices!
Sorry I did not make my self clear so I will correct it, I was referring to an individual such as the gentleman who it is alleged tried to organise a collection to help a "pensioner", and was threatened with arrest by the ticket inspector.
This the inspector is the person who should mind his/her own business, sorry about the confusion but I am concerned that any (pseudo police officers) ticket inspectors will jump on the band wagon. Its remarkable that the word picked on is being used here I can see how you can pick on someone fairly or good reason.
Well, as the subject is up for discussion, I'm not going to jump on anyone's 'bandwagon', I hope that I am just going to look at the issue objectively.
1. A traveller (whether a 'pensioner' or not ) is on a train without a valid ticket and without the means to pay the fare due.
That is at the very least a Byelaw offence, - plain & simple. An inspector becomes involved. It is his business - he is paid to deal with that issue in accordance with the relevant legislation.
2. An uninvolved third party attempts to intervene. It is none of his business. It is a matter for the traveller who is in breach of legislation and the inspector who is dealing with that issue
3. Said 'third party' attempts to organise an impromtu 'charitable' collection. Now sad as it may seem and no matter how unlikely - even this might also eventually result in legal action. You have to have authority to make a collection especially on private property, which the train is.
Just try making a collection without authority in Sainsbury's, Tesco, Waitrose ect....
If the traveller who has no ticket and no means tries to make the collection himself, he may be regarded as begging and could be prosecuted for that too
If the third party continues to try to intervene he may be considered to be obstructing an officer of the railway and a case for action remains possible.
Virgin Trains Unpaid Fare Notice
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After all if they dont know, surely your son making a mistake can be understood.
Originally Posted by tomjames
I've lost count of the number of times I've had to advise those caught without a valid ticket (or no ticket at all) that shouting about how 'badly done by' you are in a confined carriage *might* get you some sympathy but is more likely to then lessen the chances of them being dealt with discreetly discretion-wise.
As I already had his signed statement admitting 'intent' and he'd wasted a considerable amount of my time in the process, I just tried to keep calm and refused all offers of payment. 
6 weeks later he was convicted of fare evasion and fined.
