Thread: Lloyds TSB Credit agreement - enforceable or not?

Hi

A few weeks ago I sent a letter to Lloyds requesting them to send me a copy of my loan agreement. I used Letter N from the templates I found through a similar thread.

I'll be honest and say that I did this as a result of that Panorama programme a couple of months back. I don't believe in trying to "cop" out of my legal obligations, but this loan was a re-finance made by the idiots at Lloyds collections to pay off overdrafts mainly created by there bank charges!

That is another story though, and I have already been paid back in full for charges to one account, the other is frozen in the court system.

Anyway. today I receive a letter stating:

"I am sorry but we are currently unable to provide you with copies of your loan agreement documents; however we can provide you with the information that you require"

...it then goes on to quote all the figures.

Surely if they can't provide this information then this is now unenforceable?

Any one know what to do now?

Cheers

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No agreement= no payment Send them this


In Dispute

Ref:

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your letters of xx/xx/xx and xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

On the **DATE** I wrote to you requesting a copy of the credit agreement and other information under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77-79).

On **DATE** a member of your staff signed for delivery of my written request and I have an electronic proof of delivery showing their signature and the date.

To date you have failed to comply with these requests in any way, whether by confirmation of receipt of the request or by supplying the requested documents.

These documents I requested should be readily available as proof of your legal right to collect this account under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

In my letter of the **DATE** I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above account under section 77(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.

This limit has expired.

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

And

(b) If the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

You have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, failed to send a full statement of the account and failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed Breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY
Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
* You may not pass the account to a third party.
* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.
You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

Yours faithfully

Wow, thats great news, the letter is on i's way recorded delivery.

I will let you know how it turns out.

Many thanks, it turns out it feels good to get good advice just as it does to give it.

No probs

Hi PJ,

As they've been so straightforward about this, I think you could send a far simpler letter saying:-

"You have said you are currently unable to provide a copy of the loan agreement documents - do you anticipate being able to provide them at all."

You can, in the meantime, pay off the debt at a rate which you can afford and they cannot enforce the debt.

Letter went 1st class recorded delivery this afternoon.

Call me cheeky, but this loan was originally for £3900.00 and there is a little under £1700.00 outstanding.

Do I have any claim on the amount I have so far paid? (approx £2200)

PJ

Hi Roors

Sorry to be rude I didn't see your post.

I took this loan out, or rather was forced into it by Lloyds collections on 24/4/2004 and I had no PPI and nor was I offered it!!

Hi PJ,

Call me cheeky, but this loan was originally for £3900.00 and there is a little under £1700.00 outstanding.

Do I have any claim on the amount I have so far paid? (approx £2200)

You're cheeky !!

In a word, no.

Ha ha, thanks slick!!

I thought not but hey, if you don't ask you don't get!!

Thanks for your advice tho, I might just wiggle your scales.

Hi all

Today is the 4th Feb, and the "In Dispute" letter was received by them on 19th Jan, over 2 weeks ago.

I have received no communication from them whatsoever.

So what is my next move? I've never disputed under the CCA before, so unsure what my next step is. It's a bit different to re-claiming charges!

Any help please?

PJ

Hi PJ,

Carefully adapt and send this letter.

Dear Sir/Madam,

FORMAL COMPLAINT A/c no. xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

On the **DATE** I wrote to you requesting a copy of the credit agreement and other information under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77-79).

On **DATE** a member of your staff signed for delivery of my written request and I have an electronic proof of delivery showing their signature and the date.

To date you have failed to comply with these requests in any way, whether by confirmation of receipt of the request or by supplying the requested documents.

These documents I requested should be readily available as proof of your legal right to collect this account under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

In my letter of the **DATE** I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above account under section 77(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you enter into a default situation.

This limit has expired.

As you are no doubt aware section 78(6) states:

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

You have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, failed to send a full statement of the account and failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’. You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY
Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
* You may not pass the account to a third party.
* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.


I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.
You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

Despite my letter regarding ANY communication from your company, which stated that I require ALL communications in writing, your telephone calls continue.

This behaviour constitutes harassment; the letters stated quite clearly to you that I require ALL communications in writing for future use. Do not telephone me again - remove any telephone numbers you hold for me from your systems.

Your telephone calls are in breach of the Office of Fair Trading guidelines. If you continue with them after the receipt of this letter an official complaint, together with a log recording the times and frequency of the calls will be passed both to that office and to the Trading Standards office. For your information note that ALL telephone calls are taped.

This type of debt collection method is contrary to the ‘Administration of Justice Act 1970’ in that it is intended to cause alarm and distress to the recipient. Your methods will not be tolerated. A formal complaint, containing copies of all correspondence including yours, has now been submitted to the relevant authorities. This will be relevant to questions of your fitness to hold a licence under the Consumer Credit Act, whether or not it results in a prosecution.

Take further note that continued telephone calls after the receipt of a request not to call may constitute a criminal offence under Section 127 of the Communications Act 2003.

Communicate in writing and ONLY in writing, your telephone calls will NOT be answered.

HOWEVER, CALLS WILL TRIGGER COMPLAINTS TO THE REGULATORY BODIES.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

Yours faithfully

This letter is very similar to the letter I have already sent from the one further up the thread by Fedup74.

I've already done the CCA letter, had a response saying they have no copy.

I then sent the in dispute letter (fedup74), which is basically worded in the same way. It is this letter that I have had no response too. Do I need to send this again then? Sounds like I am allowing them another chance to redeem themselves!

PJ

Hi PJ,

Sorry - I should read further back up your thread.

Did you send FedUp's letter or the short version which I suggested in post #6.

Either way, they cannot presently take any enforcement action on the a/c and you're free to repay the debt at a rate you can afford.

No, they got the full version that fedup74 posted.

So far I have not received a single phone call from Delhi either, or wherever their call centre is!!

So something must be working!

PJ

Today is the 13th February, nearly a month now since Lloyds TSB received the "In Dispute" letter, and still no official repsonse.

However, today I received a call from the collections department muppet squad in Brighton. They are now chasing me for the 1 month's arrears that have now accrued.

I explained to them that they should not be calling me as the agreement is in dispute and I have requested that all communication should be in writing.

They didn't seem to want to know and kept trying to discuss how I was going to settle the account.

So now, not only is this un-enforceable, they are also still trying to collect.

Any advice please on what I do now?

PJ

if you want the calls to stop them you can send:



Your Street
Town
City
Postcode

DATE HERE
Company Name
Road
Town
City / County
Postcode
Re: Harassment by telephone

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXX Account Currently In Dispute
Dear Sirs
I am writing in relation to the quantity and frequency of telephone calls that I have received from your company, which I deem to be personally harassing.
I have verbally requested that these stop, but I am still receiving calls. (Delete if necessary)
I now require all further correspondence from your company to be made in writing only.
I am of the view that your continued harassment of me by telephone puts you in breach of Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.
If you continue to harass me by telephone, you will also be in breach of the Communications Act (2003) s.127 and I will report you to, fos, OFCOM, Trading Standards and The Office of Fair Trading, meaning that you will be liable to a substantial fine.
Be advised that any further telephone calls from your company will be recorded.

Yours faithfully,

[NAME HERE]

Ida x

Hi

I have today sent the above letter to stop the phonecalls, as I have received another call today!

I have still not received a single reply to the "In Dispute" letter. I have though recently received a regular monthly statement, and they are still adding charges and interest to the balance.

It states in my dispute letter, that they are not allowed to keep doing this, so what do I do now, report them, and who to?

Many thanks,

PJ

Hi PJ,

1. Don't pay them any more, or make token payments if you wish.

2. If they call, tell them you are recording their calls and keeping a call log to back up a Formal Complaint to the fos. Refuse to do the security checks and hang up.

Over in the BC forum, BC are replying to CCA requests by just sending out T&C's, saying this complies with their obligations under CCA 1974. Read about an alternative CPR strategy in Link No2 in my signature below.

This could be useful to you if ltsb pull the same stunt.