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I have a finance agreement on a vehicle that I am struggling to pay. I only have 8 payments of a 37 month agreement left to pay.
Last months direct debit was returned and so we are 1 month in arrears, I have phoned them and they are totally inflexable, the best they can do is offer to take a double payment this month, which is impossible ( we will struggle to make the one payment )
I know I could do a voluntary termination and return the vehicle, but the vehicle is not used any more and is in poor condition, no mot, somke damage etc so they would charge.
The thing is the HP agreement I signed is incorrect, I noticed this after getting involved with another HP agreement thread on here.
Basically they have added my acceptance fee of £150 onto the agreement and spread it over the term, charging interest on it. But it is not included in the total amount of credit stated in the agreement. Not only have they admitted it to me over the phone, but when you calculate the interest charges on the amount of credit, the charges are based on an amount £150 higher than what is shown.
Please could someone help as to what to do, they wont pay ball on reducing any payments, but I know if they took me to court the agreement is invalid which presumably means I could get all my money back.
if you are correct on the acceptance fee being included in the total ammount of credit, the agreement cant be enforced by a court.
need you to post the agreement on your thread to confirm.
deleate personel details but leave in the figures
google photo bucket.
if it goes to court on that basis forget about getting your money back, you have had use of the agreement, its called unjust enrichment.
the only time you would get your money back is if they did a repo.
as you have paid more than a third, a court order would be needed.
if the car was repo with out it, there loss as its illegal
may i ask who is the finance company
any charges on the account
if what you say is correct and you have been paying interest on the acceptance fee, you can claim that back, prob owing nothing on the agreement
need to see agreement though
they should have signed and dated the agreement after your sig to execute agreement
cant see that
Yes you are right, and that is the copy of the agreement they have sent me with the letter saying when my payments start etc.
It even says on the agreement:-
"In no circumstances, even if you are in possession of the goods, will it become a binding agreement until it has been accepted by signature for and on behalf of Carlyle Finance"
hang fire for a bit untill a mod has a look
you may be in for one hell of a payday
the agreement is flawed by there own addmission
"In no circumstances, even if you are in possession of the goods, will it become a binding agreement until it has been accepted by signature for and on behalf of Carlyle Finance"
i dont even think a court can do an enforcment order with that clause
As far as enforceability under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is concerned all the creditor needs is a document that complies with s127(3) and that only requires the signature of the debtor – so that’s the angle I’m looking at it from.
So do they have a document that complies? – Not from the evidence of the above.
S127(3) requires two prescribed terms – ‘Amount of credit’ and ‘Repayments’ and neither can be mis-stated in the slightest. Amount of credit is always open to debate and in this case does the figure £6300.00 actually represent the credit extended by the loan – personally I think yes because:
Credit = Cost of car £8225.00 minus Deposit of £1925.00 = £6300.00
The administration fee of £150.00 has been added to the cost of credit but also included (correctly) in the total charge for credit which is stated as £1055.08. Only if it is not included in the total charge for credit can it be a problem (that’s how I understand it anyway)
The total amount payable under the agreement is reached by adding the cost of the car £8225.00 to the total charge for credit £1055.08 making a total £9280.08 and this is again correctly stated in the agreement. There is a deposit of £1925.00 leaving £7355.08 left to pay over the term of the agreement.
Now comes the interesting bit – the other prescribed term ‘Repayments’ is stated as 36 x £204.03 = £7345.08 + 1 x £210.03 = £7555.11 which is an overstatement of £200.03 (£7555.11 - £7355.08 = £200.03)
Now way round this for the creditor – as long as I have read the agreement correctly and not got the sums wrong - they have overstated, therefore mis-stated, one of the prescribed terms on the agreement which makes it irredeemably unenforceable even by a court.
This is where I’m not sure of where you can go – but there is an argument to say that you keep the car and have all your payments returned vis-à-vis Wilson v FCT.
I work out the repayments to be correct, even though it says the agreement is 37 months, it says repayments start 2 months from the date of the agreement. The timing of payments part is worded a bit vaguely, but in essence I see it as saying 36 payments including a final one of 214.03. And that does make £7355.08.
However I cant see how the amount of credit can be correct, amount of credit presumably means the amount of money they have lent me. And they have lent me the £150 arrangement fee so it should be included.
Infact it actualy says at the bottom of the other financial information box how they calculate the interest. It says:-
" interest is calculated by multiplying the amount of credit ( including, for vehicle HP, the arrangement fee if spread ) by the fixed interest rate"
To me that implys that the arrangement fee is included in the stated amount of credit ( which it is not ), otherwise it would say "the amount of credit plus the arrangement fee"
Sorry – misread the payment term – like you say it’s a bit vague. I’m not sure if the amount of credit argument stands up because of how they have included it in the total charge for credit.
Ok, I will have to hope the fact that they have not signed it, and that they actually say that it is not binding unless signed by them will be enough.
Why can't finance companies just be reasonable, I only wanted a little help on the remaining payments, they have already had back the cost of the vehicle.
One thing is for sure, I will not drop it, if there is anyway out of this agreement I will find it ! With the help of CAG of course !
Okay – after my earlier screw up (sorry) I think your argument has merit on the basis that:
The amount of credit (prescribed term) is stated as £6300.00 but this doesn’t include the £150.00 arrangement fee (they can't put the figure here though because it's credit to purchase the car and that's why it states Vehicle HP). If the interest on the loan has been calculated including the £150 (which it has) then the £150.00 should be treated as credit even though it is stated in the Breakdown for total charge for credit (this is where your agreement differs to suzies – correct?)
So now your argument would be that the £150.00 itself is a mini loan within the agreement and requires its own prescribed terms i.e. ‘Amount of credit’ and ‘Repayments’ or they could have stated amount of credit as £6450.00 under the word ‘Total’ and next to the £6300.00.
Okay – after my earlier screw up (sorry) I think your argument has merit on the basis that:
The amount of credit (prescribed term) is stated as £6300.00 but this doesn’t include the £150.00 arrangement fee (they can't put the figure here though because it's credit to purchase the car and that's why it states Vehicle HP). If the interest on the loan has been calculated including the £150 (which it has) then the £150.00 should be treated as credit even though it is stated in the Breakdown for total charge for credit (this is where your agreement differs to suzies – correct?)
So now your argument would be that the £150.00 itself is a mini loan within the agreement and requires its own prescribed terms i.e. ‘Amount of credit’ and ‘Repayments’ or they could have stated amount of credit as £6450.00 under the word ‘Total’ and next to the £6300.00.
Is that the kind of thing you were thinking?
Yes thats exactly what I was thinking, amount of credit to me means how much I have borrowed on credit, ie. money that I have to pay back over time with interest charged.
It is clear to me the amount of credit should be £6450, just hope I am right.
Repo order help with defence needed.
was returned and so we are 1 month in arrears, I have phoned them and they are totally inflexable, the best they can do is offer to take a double payment this month, which is impossible ( we will struggle to make the one payment )
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Originally Posted by postggj
